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I recently moved from Manhattan to New Haven and was shocked (and a little deafened) by the higher volume of police and ambulance sirens in this city. Why are the sirens so loud, especially compared to a much larger city with high background sound levels? If possible, lowering the volume to be comparable to other cities will improve hearing and quality of life.
56 Kommentierens
skeptical me (Registrierter Benutzer)
I see all (Registrierter Benutzer)
Display Name Blocked (194572) (Registrierter Benutzer)
Jeff Lee (Registrierter Benutzer)
Lots of times the driver of Emergency Vehicle is playing with the sirens like Harpo,Chico,Bozo..(get ya to the bargaining table, make some noise , get involved)
Boyd Jones (Registrierter Benutzer)
Geschlossen guest (Registrierter Benutzer)
Reopened Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
NHVCyclist (Registrierter Benutzer)
Is it actually true that the sirens are louder? Sirens are quite loud in NYC too.
Could it be an illusion that occurs when the trucks are barreling down tight streets downtown in close quarters with structures?
One thing to keep in mind is that these same vehicles often need to fly up I-91 to respond to the areas of the city off Exit 8. If you think people are poor at yielding or common courtesy downtown, try the New Haven section of I-91. No siren is loud enough in that situation.
Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
I have used a decibel reader to measure volume in both locations, which analyzed the sound and showed that New Haven is louder. It's by no means quite in NYC, certainly, nor would I expect it to be. It may be that the reverberation of the sound off buildings makes it louder, but then it's...still louder.
I wonder in New Haven could enforce a program like what they are working on in New York: Modified Response. Sirens are important, but they are unnecessarily aggressive, it seems.
I do agree that driving residents can be aggressive and obstinate; their honking can be very irritating as well.
Kent 14 (Registrierter Benutzer)
Wow... took the time to break out the decibel meter!
Isn't it just much easier to stuck your fingers in your ears when you hear the sirens coming?
We were taught to do just that as children...
I see all (Registrierter Benutzer)
Display Name Blocked (194572) (Registrierter Benutzer)
Doug (Registrierter Benutzer)
First, you should know that sirens come from the factory able to push about 200 watts of power through speakers. Emergency vehicles can have one speaker or two, pushing 100 or 200 watts of power through those speakers. Speakers used to be above the cab, now they're in the grill or bumper because people like me suffered from hearing loss because of them. Big trucks often use a special mechanical siren that is louder. Yes, they use airhorns. And recently, there's a product called a rumbler that pushes a lower-frequency sound that you can actually feel. As someone who's been in the cab of those vehicle for the last 30 years, I'd just as soon not use a siren at all But people don't yield. Whether it's malicious (I hope not) or just a result of having the music up loud, or the headset to your phone up loud, I don't know, but nothing is more frustrating than knowing that the clock is ticking and a person is taking his or her sweet time driving down the road and won't yield.
By the way, sirens are design to be better heard by bouncing off buildings, so if things seem louder to you, move to where there aren't tall buildings, no congested streets and make sure you yield to emergency vehicles. Lights and sirens are not used when returning from a call (although sometimes some extra lights stay on, depending on local protocols. That dates back to when there were guys -- it was all guys back then -- hanging off the tailboards). Not only is it against the law, but nobody wants the liability of an accident while emergency lights are on unnecessarily.
Fires can grow exponentially in minutes and smoke can kill you long before fire gets going (how are your smoke detectors?). A heart attack or difficulty breathing victim may have just a few minutes before something bad goes to something tragic. I know sirens are a pain the, well, ear. But I hope you'll understand they are not malicious. And one of these days, we might be using them to come to you or someone you love.
(PS -- Yes, I'm a firefighter and have been since 1975, and I've been a paramedic for 26 years.)
guest (Registrierter Benutzer)
New Haven has narrow and congested streets so that might be a reason for a slightly louder siren, if that is indeed the case. It's difficult to hear and it takes longer to pull over.
My guess is that the siren volume is similar to other cities, though, and what you are perceiving is the issue that there is a major hospital downtown, similar to what you would experience in the areas around hospitals within any large city.
Jeff Lee (Registrierter Benutzer)
JackNH (Registrierter Benutzer)
tripst3r (Registrierter Benutzer)
Fair Havener (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
It's not the volume only, it is the frequency. New Haven's Unions try to get the most credit possible for every call to 911, or to the Police, no matter what the call. I have been working on the Green for 4 years now and have documented this extensively. A homeless man I know called after he hurt his toe one night, and told the dispatcher"THIS IS NOT AN EMERGENCY." It was in the middle of the night. No matter. Police cars, firetrucks, EMT's (a total of 7 or 8 vehicles) responded, ALL with sirens and lights on. Absurd, but right in downtown New Haven. Then they can all claim credit for responding and justifying their overtime and excessive hours. This happens every day, all over the city.
A trash can fire recently was responded to by 12 vehicles. It was out in 5-10 minutes. But the city is billed for 14 hours of work, and the unions continue their white collar graft. I know, because I got the report from the firefighter's office. I have nothing against the Police or the Firefighters, because they do risk their lives every day for us. BUT - the unions are the greediest organizations around.
It is the gross over-response, driven by greedy unions and AMR ambulances that sit around idling all over the city, waiting for a call, any call, to overwhelmingly respond to - lights flashing and sirens blaring - even if 6 or 7 other vehicles are already there. They don't give a damn. It can be Sunday morning on Easter, or Yom Kippur, they could care less. They just want the credit for responding, the stats, and the money.
Denny (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
Denny (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
For example: If you need to hire a police officer for one hour, to oversee an event, or help with traffic, etc., the minimum charge is $240. That's 4 hours at $60/hour. Guess who gets the bulk of the money? Not the cop. And I don't even want to get started on the gross misuse of Police at utility/construction sites. I have seen as many as 2 Police, with cars, at four very adjacent work sites in my neighborhood, doing NOTHING all day but sipping coffee. All that is needed are some cones, a sawhorse with flashing lights, and the traffic takes care of itself 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time, the company can use their own workers. but no. Unions have grabbed this "off-duty" perk and hold onto it like a pit bull. Just try to overturn that one to get the Police back on the streets, patrolling on foot, engaging with people, which is proven to work. No way will the union back off that HUGE perk, and we are all gouged by the cost in the increase to our utility bill. Meanwhile union fatcats sit on their piles on money and obscene pensions, and the governor has to get on his knees once in a while to beg. We need some serious reporters to investigate and expose this white collar crime.
Geschlossen NH Resident (Registrierter Benutzer)
Reopened Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
XS (Registrierter Benutzer)
Sam, you're right that there are times we go lights and sirens to calls that end up not being emergencies (especially on the green, it seems!) it bothers me too but I don't think you know why that really happens. I work as a paramedic in the city and I do not decide whether or not I go lights and sirens to a call--my dispatcher does through a structured caller interview process known as emergency medical dispatch. A 911 call deemed to be a possibly life-threatening situation in New Haven through EMD receives an emergent multi-tiered response with multiple vehicles. First, one engine from the nearest firehouse gets there fastest and can begin basic life support and assessment. Next, the fire department's paramedic unit (1 of 2 in the city) can take a bit longer but can begin advanced life support if needed. Then, the ambulance to transport the patient to the hospital usually takes longest to get there due to the large service area they cover. A paramedic SUV from AMR may also come if the ambulance crew does not include a paramedic to prevent the 2 NHFD paramedic units from being tied up if they have to assist the ambulance crew to the hospital. Police come if there's potential for violence. Non-emergent responses just get the ambulance and cops if need be. All of this ensures that a truly sick person can get life-saving emergency medical care quickly. Fires get a lot of hands, but firefighting is a whole different beast from medical emergencies and I strongly disagree that a skeleton crew of 2 or 3 trucks could easily handle the "real" fires in a city of 130,000+ but I digress.
Back to the issue of sirens. New Haven is a small city with two hospitals, including a major trauma center, that sees a lot of very sick people from towns all over the county and beyond. For a small city it's also incredibly dense. But as I said before, we don't choose to use lights and sirens when we are responding to a call, we are told whether or not the call requires that response as a result of the emergency medical dispatch interview. It's not in first responders' hands.
Ryan (Registrierter Benutzer)
XS (Registrierter Benutzer)
That's a great question Ryan! There are 10 fire stations throughout New Haven but only 2 (as of now, Woodward Ave and Howard Ave) have paramedic response trucks while AMR provides all the transporting ambulances for New Haven. The firefighters on the firetrucks at each station are equipped with medical gear and are capable of assessing patients and performing basic life support procedures, and thus the firetruck from the station closest to the location of the call gets sent so that somebody can be at the scene to assess and care for the patient(s) in just a few minutes. The two paramedic units respond all over the city 24/7 and usually don't spend much time in station, thus they usually don't get to a call anywhere in the city faster than the nearest firetruck. AMR covers many of the surrounding towns too and sometimes an ambulance posted in East Haven or Hamden or North Haven may still be the closest ambulance to take a call in New Haven--the firetruck with basic life support capabilities almost always beats both of them to the call a majority of the time, because of the number and spread of the firetrucks vs the fire department medic units vs the AMR ambulances.
Medical response SUVs would be great, but just to match the coverage we currently get with the firetrucks the city would need to buy 8 SUVs plus medical gear plus two dedicated crew members for each to have one in every fire district--and the cost would be far higher if those trucks were to be capable of providing advanced life support (IVs, specific medications, EKGs, etc) like the medic units do.
Hopefully I answered your question!
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
Dear XS,
Your responses are very thoughtful and thorough, and I really appreciate hearing from someone who is directly involved in the issue.
I am not surprised to learn that the question of whether or not to turn on the sirens is not in the hands of the medics, but comes from the dispatcher.
I have two main problems with the current response to emergency situations in this city. Maybe you can help.
1. The over-response to any emergency. I realize this is debatable, but even if someone was dying on the New Haven Green, would we really need 2 firetrucks, a fire EMT, 2 or 3 AMR ambulances and 2 or 3 police cars? I can tell you from observing the Green, this is not an exaggeration. I have seen it happen so many times. The exception is when an AMR comes with no lights or sirens and just picks someone up. That almost never happens. I have witnessed too many gross over-responses to not become very cynical about this. There was once a call for someone who got stabbed in the stomach. I understand, this sounds really bad, so I can see a few police cars and an ambulance or two. But 14 vehicles? FOURTEEN. I counted them and took pics. It turned out the guy had a graze wound and walked into an AMR on his own two feet.
I can cite many, many such examples. I used to document them with pics. A call about a pedestrian who got hit by a car? NINE vehicles, total block of intersection, etc., let alone total disturbance of all downtown services businesses, etc. The guy was fine, didn't even need to go to the hospital, but they took him anyway. A homeless guy I know tripped and hurt his toe. He called and specifically said "This is NOT an emergency." It didn't matter. 7 or 8 vehicles came, most with sirens, in the middle of the night. What is going on here?
2. The of the sirens, which in relation to responses to calls from the Green, seems 90% of the time to be not needed. These sirens disturb everyone and everything. Think of the therapist appointments, radio shows, church services, meetings, conversations, dates, dinners, babies and elderly awakened, classroom lessons, musical and theatrical rehearsals and productions, movies, studying... it is endless. I work in a church, and it has now become rare that a service is not interrupted by sirens, even on a Sunday morning, afternoon, or evening. The responders do not have common sense, in my view. I have seen - this happened on Easter Sunday in 2015 - a call came from the Green in mid-morning. A fire truck came, sirens and lights screaming, then an ambulance, another firetruck, more AMR came from down Church street. They could EASILY SEE that there were already 3-4 vehicles there! Did they really have to leave their sirens on ALL THE WAY AROUND THE GREEN? And ruin the church services going on? That REALLY @#$% me off, as you can tell! It is an absurd, obscene situation, as far as I am concerned. It is an abuse of everyone's rights. We had a lady vomiting once on the Green, and so many ambulances came with their sirens on it made ME want to scream.
The dispatchers seem to be part of the problem, maybe a HUGE part. But also, common sense is needed here, and a basic regard for civil behavior, and a basic regard for people to be able to enjoy their life in peace. The sirens have gotten so overwhelming in downtown New Haven that people hate it. They have also started to ignore the sirens, because they know it is not an emergency a lot of the time. So it is getting worse.
The question of the number of fire trucks and stations needed in New Haven is another matter - but I can tell you that it has a lot to do with unions, power, and greed. I have lived in New haven for 17 years and I love the city. I have seen one house fire in 17 years, a business on Ferry St. in Fair Haven. There has to be a better way. The cost to New Haven is enormous. The risks, ... I don't know. With all the improved fire codes and licensing and inspections, I am afraid the fire stations are much less needed than ever. That should be good news, but is has not resulted in any cuts.
Ryan (Registrierter Benutzer)
Thanks XS. What is disheartening is that this topic has remained the NUMBER ONE topic on this site for about one month, and nearly thirty people have commented, so this is a legitimate quality of life issue. But there is no response from the City at all. Can someone address what is obviously a serious concern to local residents?
Sam - you said it best when you show how seriously these vehicles disrupt a quality of life in the city. I know of many people from NYC and other big cities, who moved out of downtown New Haven because of the FREQUENCY and VOLUME of sirens. Moreover, it seems that a Yale acoustics engineer has verified that our sirens are the LOUDEST ON PLANET EARTH IN RECORDED HISTORY. If this is the case, that no where in reality are the sirens louder, and doctors are documenting increased hearing loss in the city, then maybe - just maybe - this is something the city should address?
Does anyone in the City of New Haven have a concern??
NHVCyclist (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
If the city really cared about our quality of life, they would listen and try to find a way to reduce the number of responders with sirens on, at a minimum.
Sam
ek (Registrierter Benutzer)
@Sam: The emergency vehicles go where they are dispatched by the most expeditious route possible. That may, from time to time, mean they will pass by you in their travels. I will attempt to break down emergency dispatch for you; if you call 911 for a medical issue (which is what results in most of the sirens you hear), the dispatcher asks predetermined questions and has a matrix they refer to depending on the answers you give. The matrix can call for a non-emergent, a basic (BLS) emergency, or an advanced (ALS) emergency.
If it is non-emergent, an ambulance responds without lights or siren.
If it is basic, a fire truck with first responders is the initial unit and an ambulance responds to transport. The fire truck goes because they are usually able to get there faster than the ambulance.
If it is an advanced call, the fire truck goes, the ambulance goes, and a fire department paramedic may go. So you may have up to 3 emergency vehicles responding for an uncomplicated advanced medical call.
In any of these situations, once a unit is on scene, they have the option to cancel any further responding units if they determine the situation does not warrant the response it was assigned. All of this is standardized Emergency Medical Dispatch (EMD). It is the national, prehospital standard of care and it has nothing to do with unions, overtime, or over-response.
Oysterville (Registrierter Benutzer)
Denny (Registrierter Benutzer)
Denny (Registrierter Benutzer)
Ryan asked the $64,000 question:
"Why send an entire fire-truck - all that equipment blaring - all that mass - if it life support equipment that is needed? This is a genuine question, not a criticism. Can't the firehouses have a small jeep or SUV?"
The city management team needed to fight the unions in order to get just 2 city paramedic vehicles. You see once we get to 8 paramedic vehicles the general public will figure out that more than 90% of the fire dept calls are actually requests for medical assistance, and in most cases those requests are not life-threatening but rather people abusing the 911 service. (by way of example there is a house on Elm (btw brownell and hobart) where the full regalia of the emergency response shows up 2 to 3 times a week. They never take anyone to the hospital but the whole show comes out to the house bc they are obligated by law to do so when the party calls 911).
Once people realize most fire calls are really paramedic/ambulance calls, the public will begin to question the need for so many firemen. Until then the emperor gets to keep his clothes...and the taxpayer loses his shirt. Don't misunderstand me, firefighting is a noble profession and we need good firefighters but the costs are out of control and teh city has a limited amount of money (but harp doesn;t think so). And if anyone dares challenge the fire dept they will certainly come under fire as being anti-union, unamerican, and unappreciative.
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
Thank you, ek. That is all very helpful information about standard procedures.
However, it does not explain the gross over-responses we see here in New Haven on a daily basis. Or, the explanation is that the system and the procedures are being ignored, or exploited and abused by the AMR company and the city unions, for very substantial profits. That is what I would like to see an independent reporter investigate. I think there is a combination of greed, opportunism, and possibly, fear of litigation - which causes these huge responses of personnel and vehicles to one small, non-emergency call.
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
I am very pessimistic about change along those lines in New Haven, sadly. If there is change, it will be very, very slow unless there is a change of leadership that is willing to address the problems at the base of this important quality of life issue. The volume and frequency of the sirens is a surface symptom of a much greater group of problems.
Geschlossen I see all (Registrierter Benutzer)
Reopened Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
The amount of emergency responses in this city leaves you feeling like there is a permanent state of crisis or something, and it increases anxiety, lessens a sense of normalcy, and interrupts so many of the routine activities in any city that it is worth taking some control over.
Instead of constant sirens, how about flashing lights with use of the siren only when absolutely necessary to get through a traffic jam. People will move out of the road when they see a vehicle with flashing lights coming. We really, really don't need the constant sirens from the ambulances and fire trucks.
Geschlossen Morty (Registrierter Benutzer)
Hi guys, my name is Morty. I'm a born and raised Newavenite. Things these days are so different than how they used to be. I Remember when the ambulances had those sirens that you had to crank with your hand in order to make them make sound. Man what a feat of engineering. Nowadays these sirens are just mega speakers attached to a tiny little amplifier that makes it go WOOOOOOH WOOOOOOH. It's like a little kid is having so much fun with a loud toy.
Anyway, when people are hurt and they need help I like the idea of knowing that they're gonna get the help they need. Just the other day I watched a couple cars sit at an intersection with an ambulance blasting its sirens. And the cars just sat there. And the loud noises. Man. They were so loud. So loud that my ears hurt. I could hear the buildings reverberate and amplify the sirens even more. And so I plugged my ears with my fingers for 20 seconds and it didn't hurt anymore. And so the city with its potholes and graffiti and blighted properties, crime, snow, genuine accidents--loud sirens might wake you up but you know what I think? I think that you should talk to your alder about this quality of life issue instead of blighting this channel.
Those hand sirens were pretty neat.
Reopened Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
Geschlossen Morty (Registrierter Benutzer)
Hi Anonymous,
My name is Morty. I'm from New Haven. I've been to the city a few times. What a place! Did they have those hand-crank sirens when you lived there?
Reopened Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
I just witnessed another siren "incident" on the Green. AMR 49 responded, sirens and lights. As if that wasn't enough, AMR 58 came too a few minutes later, also with sirens and lights. So there are 2 to 4 EMT's on site. Sure enough, a few minutes later, here comes a firetruck, sirens and lights, blasting through Chapel St. intersections, with two vehicles on site, in view, with their lights flashing... So now we have how many EMT's on site? There was a little less siren action that usual because no Police cars came this time.
This issue is OPEN until the city responds. Alderman of ward 1, are you listening?
Geschlossen Morty (Registrierter Benutzer)
Reopened sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
No, if the issue has not been addressed, it should remain open. It may be that you are closing the issue without being aware of it. Just don't click the box below under I want to... that says "Leave this issue closed."
Sam
Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
Geschlossen Morty (Registrierter Benutzer)
Reopened Ein anonymer SeeClickFix-Benutzer (Registrierter Benutzer)
Catherine (Registrierter Benutzer)
sam (Registrierter Benutzer)
Geschlossen Manager of Operations, Process Improvement - Transportation, Traffic, & Parking (Verifizierter Beamter)