Description
EVERYWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. PAVE OUR ROADS!
also asked...
Q. How deep is the pothole?
A. Unknown
A. Unknown
Q. Please provide the nearest roadway intersection and street address to the pothole.
A. THE WHOLE NEIGHBOURHOOD
A. THE WHOLE NEIGHBOURHOOD
Q. Additional Information
A. This is disgusting what this wonderful neighborhood deals with due to these roads. I've popped 2 tires and have seen 3 kids fall into the road from tripping in these poorly filled potholes. We deserve clear roads like everyone else in the town. We pay the same taxes. We see "luxury" condos going up everywhere while we can't even safety drive down our roads. The excuse of it being "privately owned" is bogus and with our tax dollars, these roads need repair. There's about 30 neighbours already in agreement as we've been trying to handle this peacefully for years. I'm handicapped from the waste down. Every winter, I have to worry about if the ambulance can make it up the streets with the poorly plowed roads since they can't go over them easier. This is a serious safety hazard and a disgrace to a town with decent, caring citizens.
A. This is disgusting what this wonderful neighborhood deals with due to these roads. I've popped 2 tires and have seen 3 kids fall into the road from tripping in these poorly filled potholes. We deserve clear roads like everyone else in the town. We pay the same taxes. We see "luxury" condos going up everywhere while we can't even safety drive down our roads. The excuse of it being "privately owned" is bogus and with our tax dollars, these roads need repair. There's about 30 neighbours already in agreement as we've been trying to handle this peacefully for years. I'm handicapped from the waste down. Every winter, I have to worry about if the ambulance can make it up the streets with the poorly plowed roads since they can't go over them easier. This is a serious safety hazard and a disgrace to a town with decent, caring citizens.
111 Comments
DPW (Verified Official)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Highway / Sanitation / Recycling Division Supervisor. (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Jim (Registered User)
Ann Hockey (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Ann Hockey (Registered User)
powermaisie (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Bill (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Ann Hockey (Registered User)
Ryan (Registered User)
Natick2010 (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Aaron (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Hi Aaron. I've been to town hall a number of times and they say things like how we'd all have to pay about $6,000 EACH to have it down. Blocks would have to be put into the sides of the road which would cut off people's yards by about a foot (big deal).
Pretty much, it's privately owned, but if we all magically find $6,000 lying around, they'll do something. Please feel free to message me for more details. This neighborhood used to be a camp site (over 60 years ago) and they use that as an excuse as to why our roads are "unaccepted" even though some are accepted for a few hundred feet and then stop! This is completely true and you can tell just by driving the roads which ones the town takes better care of.
Oh, and just while driving today, I hit a pothole so bad that the check engine light came on in my car and I failed inspection! True story! This has been seriously awful for everyone. We pay the same taxes but our roads are awful and it brings down the value of some of the beautiful homes for sale.
g fennelly (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
g fennelly (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Ackerley (Registered User)
Natick2001 (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Connie (Registered User)
I would love to help. If we need to canvas Town hall or whatever would be effective let me know. I'll hold signs or peacefully protest. Looks like we missed the April town meeting. If we need an old fashion petition I'll help get signatures -whatever. I was thinking about this myself, because this road killed my last car, which I needed to keep 2 more years. The road gave me no choice. Can we get on the Town Meeting Agenda? I have had a medical problem, but now that I'm getting better so I can put some time and effort into this.
Shannon (Registered User)
That's fantastic Connie. I'm the one that's been hanging up signs, and if you'd like some more, please send me a message. Also, there's going to be a HUGE neighborhood yard sale in the University Drive neighborhood next week I believe and I'd be happy to meet up there since it's off the main road and hand out flyers and get some signs out.
My health is failing and I will be going to Germany for treatment soon so I will do all it takes until I'm away.
Nancy Dunlap (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Natick2010 (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Glen Glater (Registered User)
Aaron asked why the town can't fix unaccepted roadways. The reason has to do with state law.
The Town is prevented from expended public funds on its repair (MGL c.84 Section 23).
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter84/Section23
However, since Natick adopted the MGL that enables us to plow unaccepted ways (MGL c. 40 Section 6C) we do chose to perform limited repairs to these sort of roadways.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleVII/Chapter40/Section6C
There is a betterment process through which you can, as a neighborhood, fund the improvement of the roadway to bring it to town standards so that the town could then vote (Town Meeting) to accept the roadway. Once that is done, public funds could be used for the upkeep of the road.
Glen Glater (Registered User)
For completeness, here is info on the Betterment concept:
http://www.natickma.gov/1057/Article-70---Public-Works-Regulations
Section 6 Betterments
Whenever betterments are assessed in connection with a public way, the entire cost of the construction of streets on said ways shall be assessed to the abutters and one-half (1/2) of the costs of construction of sidewalks shall be assessed to the abutters, provided, however, that this section shall not apply to a subdivision of land under Section 81 of Chapter 41 of the General Laws as amended.
The Director of Public Works may make repairs to private ways providing that an Annual or Special Town Meeting determines that the repairs are required by public necessity and convenience and a majority of the abutters petition for such repairs to be made and that the way has been open to public use for a period of six (6) years. Such repairs shall include the installation and construction of drainage if necessary, and the filling of holes in the sub-surface of such ways and repairs to the surface materials thereof. Materials for such repairs shall, where practical, be the same as or similar to those used for existing surfaces of such ways but may include surfacing the ways with bituminous materials including but not limited to bituminous concrete.
The Town Administrator shall assess betterments upon the owners of estates which derive particular advantage from the making of such repairs on any such private way. Such assessment shall be a sum equal, in the aggregate, to the total cost of such repairs and, in the case of each such estate, in proportion to the frontage thereof on such way. Except as otherwise provided, the provisions of Chapter Eighty relating to public improvements and assessments thereof shall apply to repairs to private ways ordered to be made under this section; provided that no assessment amounting to less than twenty-five dollars ($25.00) shall be apportioned and no assessment may be apportioned into more than ten (10) portions.
The Town shall not be liable on account of any damage caused by such repairs.
Glen Glater (Registered User)
Finally, way up the thread someone asked about bringing this to Town Meeting. Any resident of the Town of Natick can request that a warrant article be added to the Town Meeting Warrant. All they need to do is write up the article and get 10 other residents to sign on to the idea on the paperwork.
If someone is planning to do this, I highly recommend finding someone with experience writing Town Meeting articles so that the wording is precise and the Town Moderator (Frank Foss) will not find the article out of scope.
It seems unlikely that TM would accept a road that is currently unaccepted that hasn't first been brought up to the Town's standards through a betterment, but that's my personal opinion and I certainly don't speak for Town Meeting (although I am a TM member from Precinct 8). Town Meeting vote things however they choose to, as a body.
Ackerley (Registered User)
Nancy Dunlap (Registered User)
Glen Glater (Registered User)
A disclaimer. I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. Even though I do serve the Town on the Planning Board and Town Meeting the opinions I express here are mine alone and do not represent the Town. That is, I am not speaking for the Town, nor the Planning Board, nor Town Meeting, nor anyone or anything other then myself. My opinions and answers may also be completely wrong (but as Monk said, I don't think so).
I think that except when the road you are driving on is explicitly a private way (such as a driveway or an access road that belongs to an individual or corporation) you are always driving at risk. If you are driving on an accepted roadway and you hit a pothole and damage your car, I don't believe that the Town is liable, unless you can prove that they'd been told about the problem and had been intentionally negligent in not repairing it. I went through this personally in Newton a while back, where I lost a tire to a pothole and they told me I was out-of-luck.
And no, you can't block your road, because even though it may not be an accepted roadway, it is a public way, and there are laws about blocking public ways. Even blocking a road for a "block party" as many neighborhoods do in the summertime requires the permission of the Board of Selectmen.
I can't answer any questions about why the Town won't accept your road, but I'm going to GUESS that it is because the road was never built to town standards, or it was and no one put it up for acceptance at the time and now the standards have changed. Really, I have no idea. That's a question for the DPW.
Age has nothing to do with whether a road is accepted or not. The Town just recently (within the last few years) worked to get access to Main St. (the piece between the RR bridge and 135) so that it could be brought up to town standards and accepted. It's hard to imagine a road much older than that piece of Main St.
To do the betterment, you don't need 100% agreement. As the bylaw states, you need a majority of the abutters to petition for the betterment, so that's 50% plus 1. As to what that would cost, it would be a fairly simple matter of approaching the DPW and asking them to let you know. They'll work up an estimate and can work with the Town Administration to understand what the cost would be per abutter. My understanding is that the betterment can be paid over multiple years (my brain remembers 20 but that could be wrong.)
The Town has done a study of unaccepted roads and the cost to bring them up to acceptance levels, and you can find it here:
http://natickma.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/5086
There is also a listing of accepted and unaccepted roadways:
http://natickma.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3362
Aaron (Registered User)
Thank you Glen for your Help in finding and explaining this information. If I read the information right, the Town Assessors will determine the abutters whom benefit from the project (as to split the cost among). I wasn't able to find if when they did the Evergreen study if they had already determined the number of abutters already or if there is a way before we go through the process of writing a TM article, who/how many that would be.
Just a rough guesses of about 100 abetters, if your thought of being able to spread the cost over 20 years, it looks like it would be about $315/year per abbuter or an additional $79 a Tax Cycle.
Shannon (Registered User)
Aaron, if it gets our roads PAVED instead of PATCHED, I would personally be fine with an extra $75 although I was told by town hall that the neighbors could spend up to $6,000 each out of pocket. That's what's making this so difficult is that they don't listen (streets were PATCHED POORLY yesterday) and when they do listen, it's always mixed up and convoluted answers. I will be heading for Germany soon for a cancer treatment facility but you and Nancy and Ackerley sound very capable and I truly hope you guys can work together to keep the momentum working. I have all the yellow flyers and a map of their location if someone is interested in changing them (I'm bed ridden and can't). If anyone's interested in continuing while I'm in treatment, please please please keep it up for the sake of this neighborhood.
My e-mail is yuyufan43@yahoo.com and just post the heading as "Neighborhood Flyers"). My map even has a driving route to cover the neighborhood in about 8 minutes.
Glen Glater (Registered User)
Aaron:
I would say that the first step is to reach out to the Town's DPW Engineering department (http://natickma.gov/259/Engineering-Division) and tell them that you're interested in determining the cost of a betterment. Let them know what road you live on, and they'll collect the relevant information.
Regarding a TM article, I think (my opinion) that the only thing you'd be able to ask TM is for the Town to accept the roadway in the current condition. Town Meeting can't take any action that would violate MGL and if it did the Attorney General's office would void the action. You likely couldn't ask TM to fund the repaving of the road, for example. So, you'd be asking the Town to accept the roadway in the current condition. I don't want to discourage anyone from exercising their rights as citizens of Natick, but I personally feel that would be unlikely to succeed.
Shannon (Registered User)
Aaron (Registered User)
Glen
Thank you again for helping, this is obviously not a clear issue so you're assistance is really appreciated. If I'm understanding you correctly, we can go to TM and ask them to accept the road(s) in their current state. I don't think this violates https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter84/Section23 because this specifically says "which has not become a public way..." The Area has been identified as a Public Way for more then 6 years as seen in section 6 here: http://www.natickma.gov/1057/Article-70---Public-Works-Regulations.
IF (and its a big IF) TM agree's to accept the road(s) in their current state (tagged as unacceptable) then the Town has the ability to fund the repaving of those roads? If TM Doesn't accept the roads, we can petition for betterment of those roads to get them to acceptable level at the cost to the abbuters.
I hope I'm understanding the steps correctly.
Thanks
Nancy Dunlap (Registered User)
Aaron (Registered User)
I just found this:
http://natickma.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/5089
Glen Glater (Registered User)
Aaron:
You understood what I wrote perfectly. Perhaps you understated my feeling about what Town Meeting would do, but perhaps I did as well. It's never a waste of time to petition the Government, although reality might suggest that you pursue other options simultaneously. Town Meeting won't meet again until the fall. Efforts in parallel rather than serial would be logical.
Glen Glater (Registered User)
Nancy:
Every road is different. You can check the list of roads that I posted yesterday to see if your road is accepted or unaccepted. If unaccepted, the process would be the same. The DPW would figure out the costs and ask about a betterment, and if 50% +1 of the abutters on that road agree the project could move forward.
Robin Kelly (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Steve G (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
I just want to voice my support for the work everyone is putting into this and the help from Glen. I agree that we may want to try a few approaches in parallel. I emailed the engineering division to get more info about the betterment process for Crest Rd.
I am happy to help any way I can. Contact me at eric.biagiotti at gmail dot com. Also, if you end up with large pieces of asphalt on your property dug up from the snow plows, call the DPW and they will pick it up.
Robin Kelly (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
Robin Kelly (Registered User)
Steve (Registered User)
Hi everyone,
Glad to see that people are taking the initiative. I live on Birch Road and have a year and a half old daughter and a little boy on the way. The conditions of the roads are absolutely pathetic and I'm sick of seeing my daughter trip and fall every time we take a family walk. I'm happy to help in whatever way necessary. Thank you to everyone who has contributed their sentiments.
Shannon (Registered User)
Natick2010 (Registered User)
Q: How do you patch a pothole on a dirt road with asphalt?
A: town of natick: you do it anyways.
They have patched the corner of evergreen and birch before winter and it just comes up on the rain and snow. And today they have done it again. Who thinks patching a dirt hole is going to last?!
Highway / Sanitation / Recycling Division Supervisor. (Registered User)
Steve (Registered User)
Steve G (Registered User)
Steve G (Registered User)
Natick2010 (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
I am in the process of setting up an appointment to talk to John Digiacomo (Assistant Town Engineer) to discuss the betterment process for Crest Rd. Looks like we will be meeting soon after 5/17. Here are a few things I plan on asking about:
- Do we pay less in taxes if we live on an unaccepted road / who do I ask to find out.
- How much per home owner would betterment cost. I believe they would have to take a look at the road and it is calculated by individual property frontage, but I guess I'd be asking about getting the process started for estimates.
- Can the cost be covered by the city/subsidized/amortized. I understand there are state laws about cities and towns using funds to pay for unaccepted roads, but I'll see what additional info I can get.
- What can we do to ensure the Town Meeting will accept our road if we go through and complete the betterment process.
While this is specific to Crest Rd, please let me know if you have any additional questions you'd like me to ask him. Post them here or email me at eric.biagiotti@gmail.com. I'll also be asking about timing, how long all this takes, etc. and will post everything I find out here.
Eric
Aaron (Registered User)
Hi Eric,
Thank you for taking the initiative. I would possibly request that since Evergreen is the Main Artery into the neighborhood, if you could ask about Evergreen as well as Crest Rd if you wouldn't mind.
Thank you
EricB (Registered User)
Steve (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)
I'm glad to see everyone working on this. Please note that even though it's marked as Dartmouth street, I included pictures from all over the neighborhood and even wrote that it's the whole neighborhood and not just Dartmouth. When you want to flag something to get fixed on this site, you have to pick one road for some reason but I did write in the description that the whole neighborhood is a disaster. 2 fully disabled people and a new born baby alone live on Dartmouth. As I wrote in an e-mail:
It's extremely important that these deathtrap roads get paved. My neighbors just had a baby girl and the husband said driving his wife down the road to the ER was the hardest part. She was screaming in pain and even offered to get out and walk! That's not right! The town deserves to hear every bad thing happening because they're being irrational about fixing our streets properly.
I'm glad we have a legal point now and if anyone sees downed/wet/or flyers in the neighborhood without tags to take, please let Robin know for the time being. If anyone wants MORE to put them in other places, or if they want some tags to give this address to friends, e-mail me with "flyers" as the title and I'll send a PDF to the flyers we made for you to print.
Sorry my map is a little weird. The little red arrows next to the red dots is just the direction the flyers are facing. The purple dots is the driving route to see them all in one drive without having to do the roads too many times. Just changing the flyers on Birch was a challenge. The houses down there are so lovely too and they don't deserve this. No tax payer deserves this.
-Shannon
Robin Kelly (Registered User)
Ackerley (Registered User)
Please know that if you decide to have the road paved (and pay for it), it must be like 22'+ wide. Birch Rd. is, at its' widest, 17'. That means that ALL of the residents must agree to lose frontage in order to pave the whole thing. Same thing for Evergreen and Crest. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone. I just think this is something that we should ALL agree on. We need to get the word out more! Who is up for door-to-door?
EricB (Registered User)
Thanks for the feedback Ackerley,
I was under the impression that we could pay for it to be paved as is, but to get it accepted by the town it has to be certain widths, and have better drainage, etc.
Either way, my goal at the moment is to gather all the relevant info and our options. Hopefully I can do that after meeting with Mr. Digiacomo and discussing it here. Then I was thinking we can share all the info online or pass a small packet of information around the neighborhood. I just want to be fully informed before I start going door to door.
Ackerley (Registered User)
Nancy Dunlap (Registered User)
Beth (Registered User)
Closed Highway / Sanitation / Recycling Division Supervisor. (Registered User)
Reopened Ackerley (Registered User)
Highway / Sanitation / Recycling Division Supervisor. (Registered User)
Beth (Registered User)
This is a good-sized neighborhood that does pay quite a bit of real estate taxes into the system. We just ask that after all these years, can our neighborhood's roads be re-done just once. You fill the multiple holes every year and that must cost quite a bit of money. If you fix these roads completely, then you won't have problems for many years to come and the whole group of us will stop complaining. Why do we have to wait until someone is seriously hurt to get a proper response?
Ackerley (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
Ackerley (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
Natick2001 (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
This appears to be the steps to get it accepted as found by Aaron. http://natickma.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/5089
But as Glen mentioned earlier, betterment may also be an approach. I'll be finding out more about betterment when I meet with the town engineer, at which point we can come up with a plan.
Robin Kelly (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
Thanks Robin,
This seems like its a ticket system for the Highway division, so I don't know how effective it will be to keep posting here. Natick does have a process for us to go through to attempt to get the roads accepted plus road betterment, and I think we should make an attempt at using that process. But of course if we feel like we need outside help at some point, I am all for it. I think we just need a little more time to get organized and more info. I'm giving people a day or 2 to send me their emails, then I'll send out a group message.
Beth (Registered User)
EricB (Registered User)
Beth,
I plan on asking about the entire neighborhood, but I wouldn't be surprised if we have to go through the process on a road by road basis. I'll let you know what I find out.
Glen Glater (Registered User)
Closed Glen Glater (Registered User)
Reopened Shannon (Registered User)
Closed Public Works Director (Verified Official)
Reopened Shannon (Registered User)
Closed Public Works Director (Verified Official)
EricB (Registered User)
Shannon (Registered User)