How is that unfair? We live in a blame society and as many times as I've had this discussion it always falls on the parents. I'm pretty sure some of these parents are hardworking and are probably at work, unaware that their child is roaming the streets.
They aren't afraid of the police because everybody feels sorry and sympathetic and I'm past that point. This is ridiculous. How will the police have power if we sit back and say "Oh they're kids", no, it's past that point.
Several people witnessed that boy throwing bottles at the car and asked him why did he do that and he said why not. So you tell me. When the police arrived, they weren't hostile with him, they tried to get him calm and they weren't going to arrest him until he and his group of friends started mouthing back "You can't arrest me, you can't arrest him he's a kid"....so, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to sit back on this, it's out of control and I guess it's one of those things you have to see for yourself to see how serious it really has become and why escalated behaviour requires escalated reaction.
A very good friend of mine is an officer and he admitted to me that problem is that when the "kids" are acting out, nobody says anything, but when the police shows up, suddenly people want to defend them.
You said they need a distraction, I fully agree, unfortunately the 'money handlers' do not, and have made serious budget cuts which affect our children. Infact, when we realized the recession the education was chopped up, which is logic I am yet to understand. If the future of our nation is in the backpack of our children, we have a bleek future infront of us.

And no, I don't think you're a troll :P

I do think they need to do something to fix this issue. I will no longer go to the Whalley Ave KFC just because of the large groups of kids hanging out across the street on the corner of Dunkin Donuts. They yell insulting remarks to anyone walking by and I'd rather just take my business somewhere else. The last time I went there and witnessed this and there was a police officer just sitting in his patrol car on the other side of DD and he did nothing to stop them.

It goes both ways with this issue it seems, people say the parents should be taking care of their kids and teaching them to be respectful, and parents say its because there are not enough after school programs provided by the city. When I was growing up we didn't have after school programs provided by the city..it was called neighborhood tag and basketball, or baseball. This kids need to learn to do something constructive with their time and not just be rude wanna-be "gangsters"

Crime is naught but misdirected energy. So long as every institution of today, economic, political, social, and moral, conspires to misdirect human energy into wrong channels; so long as most people are out of place doing the things they hate to do, living a life they loathe to live, crime will be inevitable, and all the laws on the statutes can only increase, but never do away with, crime. What
does society, as it exists today, know of the process of despair, the poverty, the horrors, the fearful struggle the human soul must pass on its way to crime and degradation.

There is no excuse for this city-wide, disgusting behavior, not from the teens, not from the parents, and certainly not from the cops.

This is not an isolated problem, This is a city-wide problem that needs to be addressed. I think the police need to do more when they see loitering. I also believe these business owners are at fault also for allowing this.

Business owners aren't at fault. How will they earn a living with these brats hanging outside.They call the police all the time. The kids just move along to another corner.
When we were kids...no after school programs...we did it all ...tag, kickball, board games on the front porch and if you screwed up outside or disrespected an adult you'd get a spanking, tongue lashing or punishment.
These kids have parents some of whom they may not want to disappoint. Officers should make a call to the parents and ask them if they know where their children are. No one wants a curfew but kids of a certain age should be in the proximately of their own homes at sundown. If we were at the park close to home we had to be back in front of our house before it got dark otherwise we wouldn't see the outdoors for at least a week.

The problem is unlikely to go away until we address neighborhood stress sources and quality of life.

As long as you have noisy trucks and buses speeding through these neighborhoods at 60 miles per hour, government cars running red lights and ATVs doing wheelies in the street, which happens constantly, you will continue to have disaffected youth throwing bottles.

Not only does this type of noisy, dangerous activity reduce the number of places to play and hang out constructively (children used to play right on the street, and still do on streets that are properly designed), it also reduces the number of jobs (because people do not feel comfortable or happy walking outside, crossing streets and shopping in their neighborhoods) and sets a general tone of violence and discourteous behavior. The noise and vibration also has a major impact on child development and ability to learn.

Traffic is not the only problem, but it is clearly a major concern. With the exception of one or two major arterial streets, there is no reason why vehicles should be traveling at more than 15-20 miles per hour in our neighborhoods where children and elderly live. There should also be more concerted efforts to reduce trash, blighted properties, graffiti, gunshots, pollution and noise sources. Police can help enforce appropriate regulations and laws related to the above, but programs (like graffiti removal) are needed too.

Job creation and youth activities are obviously helpful as well, but will not happen unless you address the environment. Historically, the vast majority of jobs and activities have been provided by the private sector and nonprofits, not by the government. That's not about to change. These private sector jobs and activities will cluster in areas that are pleasant and healthy. Crime won't go away on its own either, no matter how many police patrols you add.

If you create a healthy and equitable environment, you will see healthier and friendlier behavior. It is a simple concept and proven to work elsewhere, yet for some reason we're still pouring almost all of our resources into programs that are not directly related to this.

Yes, some business owners are at fault by allowing these teens to hang out in front of their stores and sell drugs. And allowing them to run into to the store when cops drive by. I think they should call the cops to complain about the loitering instead of allowing it. I understand they have to make a living but maybe if people weren't afraid of going to the store because of the crowds they hang out front they would make more money.

Mark, you say:

"The problem is unlikely to go away until we address neighborhood stress sources and quality of life."

That is exactly what we are talking about. The teens are one of the stress sources and they are negatively affecting the quality of life here. Who do you think is "on the ATVs doing wheelies in the street", among a lengthy list of other illicit activities? Please do not try to re-direct the responsibility, it is offensive and an insult to many peoples' intelligence. People are responsible for their actions; it does not matter who they are or where they are from (except the mentally ill). Just because some people do not have the perfect neighborhood and family life does not mean that we are not responsible (or smart enough to be responsible) for our own actions.

You say:

"There should also be more concerted efforts to reduce trash, blighted properties, graffiti, gunshots, pollution and noise sources."

Well, I see no reason why we cannot puts these teens with nothing to do on it. Half (quite possibly more) of the trash, gunshots, graffiti, pollution, and noise sources (like ATVs doing wheelies in the street) are the results of their actions. Even if not, I think that would make an excellent after school activity, or summer long program. If nothing else, it would keep them out of trouble and may teach them about responsibility. I will go out on a limb here and say they may even learn empathy; while scrubbing the graffiti off of someone's house perhaps they could meet the person who lives there and get a chance to see how hurtful it is to have the side of your house that you work hard for spray painted by some low-life (who is bored and angry because his surroundings are not to his liking and the trucks vibrate the street).

I think some people have it backwards. There is a reason the goodness slips - moves - away. All of these petty (and a lot of time, not so petty) crimes are treated with apathy by our police department. The teens are literally testing what they can get away with. Currently, they can get away with pretty much anything. The police force needs to be reigned back in and someone needs to re-prioritize what it is they are doing. I do not doubt that the entire department needs to be completely restructured to work again. Things will NEVER improve until the NHPD starts to crack down on what they consider to be petty issues. They need to get a handle on these out-of-control teens as part of it. Large amounts of investing is not going to happen unless the investors feel safe (and know they are going to profit). The NHPD, no doubt hindered by City Hall, is holding us up.

Other people just have it plain wrong. I know plenty of kids who grew up in much worse surroundings than New Haven, with far less in terms of a home and family, and they did not act like vicious monsters terrorizing everyone around them. There are so many things to do in New Haven for a teen it is sickening that what is happening is. There are parks, rivers, a downtown, even a beach. There is stuff to do every which way you look. Stop blaming everyone and everything but yourself.

This Saturday the Downtown-Wooster Square Community Management Team and Wooster Square Watch are sponsoring a community planning meeting.
Results from the 2010 New Haven quality of life survey are now available and will be a terrific indicator of the areas of focus for improving the quality of life in our neighborhood.

Please join us!

Saturday, May 8th
8:30 am -- 12 pm
(coffee and refreshments provided)
Conte Hills School Cafeteria

I hope many of you can make it to think strategically as a group about how we as citizens can make a difference in the neighborhood within our broader mission of safety through awareness and prevention.

See you there!

twitter.com/dwscmt
http://groups.google.com/group/DWSCMT

Thank you Doug for your invitation, however I work on Saturdays, but please stay in contact.

Mark, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure I buy it. I have visited neighborhoods in cities around the world that according to you should have much higher levels of what you call stress than anything we see in New Haven. But they have comparatively little crime or delinquency. If the world worked as you just described it, downtown Hanoi should be a war zone. It's far from it.

I am starting to think that the best thing we can do for less advantaged communities is stop making excuses for them. Yes, we should demand safe streets, appropriate play areas, schools, social services, etc. But that's not enough. We as a community need to set standards for behavior and insist on them. As the earlier poster suggested, that requires that we all step in and deal with the problem rather than just leaving it to the cops.

Eddie: I doubt you can draw those comparisons between Hanoi, a rapidly-growing region of more than ten million people (how many of those people actually live within those famous, touristy downtown areas where it's impossible to cross the street due to traffic? how many spent their childhoods in the downtown?), and New Haven, a region where some neighborhoods lack decent access to transportation, health care, jobs and groceries, population density is far lower, and, relative to the national average, a very large proportion of families report difficulty coming up with enough money to put food on their table each day.

Hanoi is a relatively young city in terms of governance, and is rapidly changing from an economic perspective. Speeding trucks, accumulating trash, and broken windows may have a different connotation there than they do here. I know a few folks in Hanoi. If you read the recent literature from that city, you will find that their citizens are coming to the same conclusions that I posted above -- that the environment, traffic, litter, noise and pollution have major impacts on child development, job creation, crime, education and health.

These factors in Hanoi have their costs, too, they just may not be as apparent or as well-documented as they are here. The only way to move forward is by creating policies and neighborhoods that enable the children and families who live in them to succeed. If you do not address the environment as a whole, those who have the choice will just move away, resulting in no change to the situation we are in now.

I agree, Concerned Citizen - why not offer some new jobs in those areas? I will add it above as an "action item."

Concerned Citizen - on the topic of ATVs, "pocket bikes" tearing up the sidewalks, etc., I agree that they should be ticketed.

However, I also mentioned things like government cars running red lights and buses speeding down the street at 40 miles per hour. Local residents, and especially teenagers, do not drive the CT Transit buses, the police cars, the garbage trucks, the Yale shuttles. The drivers speeding down Whalley in their dump trucks at 60 miles per hour are not local teenagers. And traffic is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to environmental conditions. I find it sad you would seek to blame teenagers for all of these problems.

It seems clear that the problem with neighborhoods, jobs, schools, respect, guns, drugs and money stems from our social and environmental policies and practices, even though some find it easy to blame a single demographic (urban teenagers) for all of them.

Other cities and countries are taking dramatic measures to address these issues and prevent problems from developing in the first place -- will New Haven run with them, or be left in the dust? Do we need to wait for Promise Neighborhoods funding from Barack Obama, or can we just go out and accomplish the same things on our own, right now?

Mark, that's not quite true. In Hanoi, sane urban planning is non-existent outside the city center as well as inside, with exploding neighborhoods traversed by busy roads choked with fast-moving traffic. There are virtually no controls on pollution or noise. I could name a dozen other cities without even trying where people live more or less peacefully amid dirt, noise, crowding and confusion that simply doesn't exist in the United States.

I'm not arguing that these problems don't need urgently to be addressed. But to blame them for the social cancers in American cities is naive. You can have your pick of scapegoats -- poor urban planning, racism, poverty, historical injustice. Life is unfair, but that does not give people license to thumb their noses at society and ignore the rules that the rest of us are expected to follow.

Hey Guys,
The debate here is important so I do not want to remove the post.

In the future we ask that specific problem locations be reported separately so that we have a more structural way of looking at the problems.

Thanks!

Ben

Ben,
I understand your point, however, it's a citywide problem, just last night, while driving from westville toward downtown, I noticed there were some teens loitering on Norton Avenue, and George Street. Infact, I was on my way to a friend's house to see how she was progressing after surgery and I had to go that way, and a car stopped at the light (corner of George and Derby) parked and was playing music. I was at the adjacent light and saw some teens rapidly walking down Derby Ave, only to see that they were trying to walk away from a police patrol car, the group split up and were yelling at each other to go separate ways and meet up at a location. This incidence occurred at 9:50pm. I do not understand the need for it, and my heart goes out to the parents who are probably at work totally unaware of what is going on, hence the reason I believe a drastic measure needs to be taken.
At the same time, I noticed the young man who I had seen arrested a couple days before for disorderly conduct (he was drunk and was throwing bottles at cars passing by), and he was blatantly smoking drugs while walking with his group.
I also watched as a drug dealer stood dealing drugs to the car which was parked.
It's really hard to believe that everything described happened within minutes, but it did and it shows how inter-related my post is with prior postings. I agree, the community needs to get involved but I do believe many members of the community are either discouraged or afraid. I've been spreading the word to my neighbors about links I think are helpful such as the Neighborhood Police watch, which allows you to make non emergency calls about incidences in the neighborhood, seeclickfix which allows you to post your concerns and letting them know that they can talk to the police without worrying about providing their name given that some people I spoke to told me they were afraid to get involved because "snitches get stitches".
Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I think somewhere along the line there are unresponsible inconsiderate adults involved who are encouraging these young people in certain behaviour and equipping them with weapons, drugs. It's sad how some people be so low as to abuse children in such a way, but it happens. I think that once the community, the police department, the education department, churches etcetera all agree that there is a problem, we can progress positively forward.

I agree it is a citywide issue. To Ben's point, there is a location reported: The New Haven Green. The Green has not been immune to the issues being discussed here so I suggest leaving the issue marker where it is.

Definitely agree anonymous poster.
I just want to make sure we are reporting specific incidents and target areas or we will not be able to close the loop as hotspots start to disappear.

Ben

Not too long ago, I was at the corner of Temple and Elm St (the corner with the public library) about to make a left hand turn onto Elm St when the car in front of me pulled to the side and a hip looking (not ghetto with his pants on the ground) black teenager went to the driver's window and gave him a little package and the driver, clumsily, and blatantly handed him a wad of cash. The kids in the car were all white and looked like they came in from the suburbs. They all saw me seeing them, and only the dealer seemed a bit concerned. He was very disturbed about how indiscreetly the buyer handed him the cash.

If you think about it, selling around the Green is a great idea. It is so public no one would think that anyone would choose this location to buy and sell. Fortunately for them, this is not the kind of crime I consider to be a crime. I don't approve of teens smoking pot, but I also don't believe in ruining their youth because of it. I am not in law enforcement, and do not have the authority to make any decisions regarding marijuana, so please spare me your personal opinions regarding marijuana.

I think the comments here regarding this issue are great. There appears to be a great deal of intelligence and concern shown for this very serious problem. I just hope that the NHPD cleans up its act and starts to address the issues -- starting with the small crimes (but overwhelming in numbers) and working their way up to the large. There is no excuse for allowing what is perceived as petty crime because there are also more serious crimes taking place. The teens have tested the limits and realize that there barely are any. Hence, increasing amounts of more serious crimes.

The neighborhood is a cesspool, what did you expect?

In case I was not clear enough with the above post, my point is that teens are getting away with a full range of crimes, and in the case above, it was right out in the open, in the center of town, on the Green, in front of a public library.

Hopefully, someone figures something out soon. Now, a fourteen year old with a gun robbed and carjacked a census worker:

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/05/08/news/metro/bb1hacarjacking050810.txt#blogcomments

Maybe we should start posting pictures and information about the parents of these teens in the news, like they did to the prostitutes and their Johns a while back.

A few hundred years ago, people who violated the rules of society were chained up and displayed to a jeering public. These days it would be considered "cruel and unusual," but I don't see why. "Cruel and unusual" is prying off people's thumbnails. Crimes are offenses against society, and society should be allowed a larger role in the consequences.

I strongly advocate revisiting the concept of public shame when we talk about justice -- particularly quality-of-life crimes. I propose that once a week we should parade all of the newly convicted drug dealers, muggers, petty thieves, etc. down to the New Haven Green and require that they stand there silently, in full view of the public, with signs listing their offenses were.

The idea is to take the gloss off the criminal lifestyle and harness the power of public disapproval. I suspect that this approach would be particularly effective for teenagers.

This problem is the very reason why I drive out of town to get food/groceries/run errands. On one hand, I hate letting them "win" like that, but on the other, I'm likely going to snap and pummel one of the little brats. I've been verbally badgered several times without any reason, yet if I were to make similar comments in kind referring to their race, I'd be called racist.
If these chromosome deprived children want to live the life of a "gangsta" then give them the full experience and lock them up somewhere. It's where they're going anyway, so just speed up the process. In the meantime I plan to get a permit to carry.

Edgewood, many agree with your comment:

"In the meantime I plan to get a permit to carry."

Especially after the census worker got robbed and carjacked at gunpoint. (Also, did any one else hear about the sixteen year old that stole the school bus and drove it around New Haven and was in a police car chase?)

I am signed up for the pistol permit course now, as well as several other people I know who live in New Haven. It is also not a bad idea to have a shotgun for home protection. Just keep in mind, you cannot shoot someone just because they broke into your house. You have to fear that your life (or family's) is in danger. For example, if someone broke into your house and attacked you with a knife.

I think we should also have public access to police officers' duties and patrol areas and the crime statistics that correlate to their shifts. That way we know what it is that they are doing while crimes are occurring. If it turns out they were attending to some crimes while other crimes were taking place, then we know that more officers are needed. On the other hand, if there is no record of anything being done while crimes are occurring and calls are being logged at dispatch, then we know someone needs to work a bit harder at their job. Just a thought.

Uncle Egg - I give your plan two nail-less thumbs up. :)

Second Amendment - Agreed, although it's a tough call to say where the line is drawn between feeling in danger and being endangered. I suppose the permit course teaches this?

Police Oversight - Good idea, but it could be used by criminals to elude police, too (if it were a live report, like a police scanner). http://www.newhavencrimelog.org/ has some of this information, just not where officers are between calls.

Edgewood - I think once a month would suffice - definitely not live, that would probably be incredibly expensive.

One cheap and easy thing we and the city could do, especially right now just before school gets out for the summer, is to distribute the brochures from Parks and Rec of all the programs and services.

The problem is some of the services aren't even published, like the ability to borrow canoes and stuff, but there are lots of programs outlined on the web site and a pdf brochure that can and should be distributed in an absolute blitz of flyers in the neighborhoods and at Freedie Fixer.

I will make one critique though, some of the programs offered this year are not geared to the very kids we want to engage.

For example, lots of the kids like to ride these low bicycle cross biscycles. But instead of a program in that, the city offers one to learn all the techniques of riding a 15 speed mountain bike. O kay.

There should be more summer teams and they should be based in the neighborhood parks, walking and biking distance from where the kids live.

Everything the parks and rec dept does and offers should be better publicized and it isn't. I am smart adn read their web site, but learned about some of it accidentally from a neighbor with ties at parks and rec. C'mon!

There should be a leafletting campaign.

In a city where people have been busted by the feds for diverting basketball league money from poor neighborhood kids, perhaps that simple outreach, simple compassion for kids is too much to ask.

There is a strong tendency to hang out causing trouble but there is a real opportunity as warm weather comes to harness those kids with dreams of doing cooler things than harassing people at KFC. No one has told them there is anything better to do, or made it easy for them to do it.

Oh, link to one parks and rec brochure and there is a lot more than what is in that brochure. Also, sorry for all the typos I made in my last post.

http://www.cityofnewhaven.com/parks/outdooradventure/index.asp

also, for a location pin, Whalley or Edgewood or Chapel might be better than downtown green. I think Whalley is the main artery for these locations and would work a little better.

I know you all find this hard to believe, especially since some of you have tried hard to engage these kids in passing anyway, but they really do not have any examples of doing anything else with their time. We/the city really do need to bring the programs to them, not expect them to go to the city web site, or to parks and rec to figure it out.

Also, they don't know that anything else could be cooler than what they are doing.

Some of them are hell bent on a bad path and will take some hard knocks before they go straight. But, I swear to you, lots of them want more, they just don't know anything more, not in their families, streets, schools, anywhere. They don't have the concept.

Believe it or not, with all our high school pools, coastal location, even our beach at Lighthouse Point, tons of these kids don't even know how to swim.

If it takes that, the cops can give them an ultimatum, join a summer program or sports team or next time you're going to be in Juvi court. Give them a brochure, if you send them to a team, give them the coaches name and say to tell the coach Officer so and so sent me. We need to combine outreach with policing.

You know what? We have a bigger problem than I thought. Here is another link, to the sports program at Parks and Rec: http://www.cityofnewhaven.com/Parks/recreation/index.asp

I'm sorry, but do you all see what I see? Very limited hours, very limited programs and it appears that the programs are designed to avoid a certain teen age group, the very age group that needs more engagement. Slim pickings!

Look at this. THis is the city's basketball team program:

Children 5-6 years old
A playful introduction to the game of basketball, this basic program will introduce basketball through games and fun.

Children 7-9 years old
Develops fundamental skill levels and basic techniques through games, with an emphasis on fun, participation and sportsmanship, taught in a non-competitive format.

Children 10-12 years old
Further hones the skills previously described above.

This is one of the most popular sports in New Haven and the teams stop at Age 12. Is that sensible? IS there some other league that takes over from the city for older kids?

Boys and Girls Club has programs for kids up to age 18 and beyond:

http://bgcnewhaven.ezsitelaunch.com/page1061450.aspx

Yale programs for New Haven kids is here: http://www.yale.edu/onhsa/youth_programs.htm

They offer arts, theater, science, athletics, etc. The athletics is at the bottom of the page.

Look at this one example:
Yale-New Haven and Area High School Program
This four-week summer enrichment program is free and open to all Greater New Haven students in grades 9-12. The program meets on the Yale campus and features college preparation sessions, guest lectures, and field trips.

Contact: Karen DuFer at 203-946-2342

GIve me a break, a struggling New Haven parent with a kid thinking of spending the summer outside of KFC would be crazy not to drag the kid down to this program. How many inner cities in America are offered Ivy league prep classes for free, with no one turned away?

New Haven parents should be taken away in straight jackets if they aren't taking advantage of these resources. Notice this one is free and accepts every high school kid.

I will spend my entire summer, 40 hours per week and more to do cool activities with these teens. I will do biking, camping, fishing, boating, and more, and I know there are others out there like me who would be willing to do the same. I think if we had the material resources we could definitely find individuals willing to devote some time to help.
For example, I live in Fair Haven and know that fishing is very popular here. If we could somehow gather up enough fishing poles and fishing supplies, we could get teens out to fish everyday for an entire summer (I did it myself when I was a teen and never got bored, and I bore easily). Apply this same idea to any activity you can think of.
I can set up a community website/forum on NING where we can consolidate our efforts. Taking an approach like this, I think we could tackle this issue without needing any tax money. Most of the material resources could be gathered from using sources like craigslist. I am sure if just a handful of us put our effort into it, we could put a huge dent in this issue (or take a huge dent out).
If I see enough interest here, I will set up a NING site ASAP. We have about a month and a half before all hell breaks loose. Let's get on top of this now.

The youth causing these issues probably wouldn't enjoy participating in these programs. I don't know if basketball or educational resources would receive the same interest that drugs and dysfunctional friendships hold.

I say this having been one of those youth. It's not an easy problem to solve, especially if people aren't interested. Teens lack the insight to see these things.

Curfew is the only answer.

Still having this issue in my area. Kids (around 8-12 years old) get off their school bus and smash their Snapple bottles onto the sidewalks and driveways - nearly a daily occurrence. Apparently it's funny?
The hilarity continues with these children darting into traffic on Ellsworth/Whalley on their bikes. One of them laughed hysterically when I braked for him. Next time should I not bother?
I don't feel much empathy anymore when I hear about kids getting hurt around here.

"The youth causing these issues probably wouldn't enjoy participating in these programs. I don't know if basketball or educational resources would receive the same interest that drugs and dysfunctional friendships hold.

I say this having been one of those youth. It's not an easy problem to solve, especially if people aren't interested. Teens lack the insight to see these things."

And so the problem, as is often the case with kids up to mischief in the streets, is bad parenting. Kids who aren't in trouble are no less capable of being in trouble. The difference is that their parents MAKE them join enrichment activities, such as sports, and summer prep classes at Yale.

These kids have parents who are terrible and probably blame everyone else for their being bad parents.

Hi Guys,
We are going to close this issue and ask that you report the individual or recurring incidents separately at the locations where they occur.

It will be more constructive and help us all better quantify and solve the problems.

Thanks,
Ben