The pile that is shown in this picture is not part of the off leash area. And there are fences to keep the dogs IN the off leash area just east of this location. Dogs should legally be on a leash in the area where this pile is. Also this pile is dumped in a rarely used secluded area of the park on a staff service road. It's not even visible, to most people who use the park. This section is nestled in a part of an officially designated re-growth area where people are discouraged from walking at all. And yes, dogs LOVE it, my dog included. I leash him whenever he is in proximity of the zoo poo, or the aftermath of the Toronto police's mounted patrol in the park...for whom we are all grateful I'm sure or if there is a dead raccoon/squirrel/rabbit/skunk/fox around. Doggie 'treats' abound in a public park. Watching out for them is part of owning a dog.

The zoo manure has been composted at the location photographed for many many years, more than 15 or 20 with no ill effects or complaints, that I have ever heard about. All those grass covered hills just south of that pile are old zoo poo. After at least a year, the matured zoo poo is brought to the allotment gardens compost station for the gardeners. It is 'gardeners gold', especially for our allotments, which are mandated to be organic, as in: no commercial pesticides or fertilizers...and it is critical to growing stronger, healthier, more disease and insect resistant and productive plants. Those of us in the allotment gardens fought to have access to it. Using herbivore poo to fertilize crops is as old as cultivating itself in human history. But that year long process of allowing forest seedlings, insects, worms, heat, water and weather to start breaking down fresh manure has to start somewhere. Where is is, is also very good for the surrounding pines, maples and oak trees. To my knowledge there is no 'health hazard'.

Perhaps you might consider the benefits of taking a different route through the 408 acre High Park area and making good use of your dog's leash.

Respectfully, L Green. Chair, Allotment Garden Committee/dog owner/local resident..

I agree with Lyn and all the points she has made. As an allotment gardener in High Park, this resource is important to me. I have been aware of this compost pile for years and it has never bothered me, even before I had an allotment garden.

I say leave it as is and leave it alone please!

I too am an allotment gardener and take advantage of this "black gold" it is invaluable to me. I amend my soil with it every year and it helps myself and others grow delicious tomatoes, carrots, leeks you name it! As Lyn said it is not a dog's off leash area, so it shouldn't be too much of a concern.

I agree with Lyn Green dont touch the poo

Lyn Green's response is quite thorough. Manure has been composted and returned to the earth this way for centuries. There should be no health concerns. As to the worry of it leaching into a stream, that should not be an issue beyond a few feet of proximity to the pile.

lol yes, I can see how much "respect" you have by your reply.

High Park is a great public park and has a lot of different users. With a bit of give and take everyone is able to co-exist. Among other things High Park preserves an area of rare black oak savannah for the interest and enjoyment of all. Unrestricted movement by dogs and their owners tends to damage this habitat but the park has accommodated them by providing a large free-run area and clearly designated trails. It has even fenced off some areas to allow regeneration.
The problem manure pile is being composted in an “on leash” area. The dog walker shouldn’t have any problems if she is respects the “on leash” regulation and keeps her dog under control. It’s a large park. Why doesn’t she avoid this area all together and enjoy the many alternative routes?

Ms. May your complaint contained a great deal of misinformation. It is unfortunate that you interpret correcting misinformation as a sign of disrepect. I am also an allotment gardener. As a graduate of the Sustainable Urban Agriculture programme at University of Guelph, it is important to me that animal manure inputs for the gardens be properly and thoroughly composted and done in such a mannner that there are no deleterious impacts on the local environment or human health. The "zoo poo" is being handled in an appropriate and safe manner. Perhaps your concern is actually an aesthetic one? I am reminded of the complaints that arose when Parks decided to start leaving fallen branches and like material to decompose naturally in situ as this would result in a healthier park eco-system.

Very informative. This makes sense. Thanks for your thoughtful, considerate and knowledgeable response, Lyn. I am not a dog owner. While walking in the park, I stick to the paths and am appreciative of those who follow the rules in the leashed areas. Now I can see it from a dog owners point of view - it's to keep them safe.There are so many educational moments. Nice to see participants taking advantage of the opportunity to share their thoughts and fill one another in.

I don't think Ms. May wants to eliminate the composting pile completely. I think what she wants is a more rigorous, health conscious management system for the waste. As it stands, the waste is merely dumped. It's not turned or mixed in with organic waste such as leaves or clippings. It's just a giant pile of crap, sitting on the side of a trail. To those using the allotment gardens, I'm sure we're all aware how useful it is to have a source of fertilizer available. However, at the moment it smells, it's unsanitary, and it's not being maintained to any standard of 'composting'.

Here's a useful link on how to compost animal waste:

http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/composting_solid_manure

I've read it, and I'm pretty sure that none of these things are happening.

I have a dog. It's on leash whenever it's not in the off-leash areas. And still, I don't want a big pile of poop sitting at the side of a trail. Until it's maintained and managed, it's not compost. It's a health hazard and an eye-sore. Not to mention a problem for the nose.

I do NOT object to the use of properly composted animal waste as a soil amendment. In fact, as a recently retired environmentalist, I totally support this practice, if done using best practices. I do object to large quantities of animal excrement, just recently eliminated from an animal, being placed in a pile in the middle of a public park. This pile needs to moved somewhere that is not accessible to park's users, until it is properly composted and free of pathogens. If this can't be done, then a high fence needs to be erected around it. A compost pad needs to be installed to prevent leachate. The pile needs signage to warn people that it consists of animal excrement. In fact, the path that the excrement is close to is well used by people walking from parking on Colborne Lodge Drive. Shouldn't these people be warned that the "mud" left on this path by pick-up trucks dumping their load is actually excrement? I notice that there is pooling around the pile and this needs to be dealt with. How does the Toronto Zoo deal with their waste? Is it piled in the middle of the zoo?

This issue has nothing to do with dogs being on or off leash. It is an environmental and human health issue. It is true that the park is large. Why then can't the fresh excrement be stored away from people and the off leash area until it is properly composted, preferably close to the zoo. Once it is finished, it can be moved to the allotment gardens.

Why don't you place this pile in the other 408 acres instead of right by an off leash area where children, adults and dogs are.
OR add a fence around it

I agree with L Green. It's a great day when we can hear the truth being said and not some uneducated thoughts from Janet May.

Dear L Green .. In the picture of the pile! You can see a fence, with a gate . Many people use this trail not just dog owners. This is not a rarely used part of the park . I can across this pile while I was snowshoeing .

There is NO need to be rude, people are allowed to have their own opinions and just because you don't agree with them does NOT make them uneducated

I don't think we want this to turn into a personal attack, Les Malakies. Why don't you apologize to Ms. May and in future try to debate the issues instead of attacking the person you disagree with?

@Les Malakies. I understand that opinions on this issue are strong, but to blindly attack someone that you may not know a great deal about, is just rude and unhelpful to the debate. Perhaps we should chair this conversation somewhere in person, the internet does tend to make brave orators of the anonymous.

This is an idea . The pile can be moved to the gardens . Since they fought so hard to have access to it .

The allotment gardens are within the off leash dog area, much more traffic, more dogs, more children. Any other suggestions? I know the park well. Make a recommendation that is not close to activities, cafes, playgrounds, the Dream theatre site, formal gardens, the meditation maze, science and nature centres, tennis courts, Colborne Lodge, the western hillsides, streams, ponds, picnic areas or sports fields. Can't be at the zoo itself there's no room and too many people , children especially. The whole point is to remove it from high traffic areas. It must have staff only road access lest it attract public parking on busy days. Do make a suggestion.

There is an area North of zoo (up the hill) before you get to Centre Road that has a City Building on it with road access for their trucks. It is not an off leash area nor a place the public tend to go to. I am not sure what the facility is used for their but it seems like a good alternative.

Yes, the park is a dynamic multi-use space. However, even if the manure pile is moved to another location within the park, it STILL needs to be managed according to best practices for composting. To avoid contaminating the soil and water, to provide a safe leisure area for guests, I think the question is not whether to move the pile or not, but what can we do to make composting at High Park the safest and cleanest it can be? "Not in my backyard" doesn't apply, because High Park IS my backyard, and the pile of poop is already there.

The argument regarding the 'compost' pile is not that it is unattractive and inconvenient. The argument is that it's unsafe and unmanaged, and could be dangerous to all park users if not monitored properly. Moving the site is a possible outcome of any deliberations, however it's outside the main consideration that the waste from the Zoo be managed more professionally, more ecologically, and more diligently. The inconvenience to a few privileged allotment users is negligible considering the vast amount of guests that come to High P ark every day. The compost pile is not hidden, not monitored, and not cordoned off. The water system in High Park helps to maintain the ecological systems that live and grow there. The pile of Zoo waste leaches into that water system every time it rains, from both the 'compost' pile and from the allotment gardens themselves.

I have to question the legality of High Park managing animal waste in such a manner, and would welcome any legal evidence to suggest that they are or are not complying with the laws and by-laws of this city.

Sleffer, That is the park Greenhouse are. Therer are offices there. In the past The Natural environment committee has also held plant sales there. There are picnic tables near by and that location is at the top of the hill behind the zoo. There is insuffient space and inability to control the pile and turn material with machines. It is also much closer to the public...but mainly the staff will certainly not thank you.

Doh . Inform yourself as to best practices. The pile iIS managed correctly. It is not by any means unsafe. It is in the proper place and the best place for it in High Park. It is certainly monitored. I urge you to get yourself some real information. Perhaps it would set your mind at ease.

L Green, if you have information on how the pile is being managed I think sharing that with the group may be helpful. It seems that Ms. May's efforts to obtain this information from City officials has been ignored.
BTW, there is a picnic table near the current dump site and an individual seems to have taken up residence nearby.

Please do sugget where else...? I have spent the better part of almost 60 years in this park. Choose a place close to but not AT the allotment gardens (which is WITHIN the off leash area) that can be accessed by a truck, and/or a front end loader, which also has less public traffic than the current location. The outdoor theatre? the cafes? the playgrounds? The meditation maze?picnic areas? Baseball diamonds? the Japanese cherry blossom corridors? Colborne Lodge? Can't be closer to the streams, the marshy areas or Grenadier Pond or dumped on one of the western open hillsides. I can think of no better place for it. It sits within a restricted re-generation zone, in a very low traffic area with truck access that is not open to the public. There is no family picnic or sports activity for at least 100 yards and 50 feet from the off leash area which is behind fences and and gates.far enough away that the smell if discernable at all, is faint. Please name an alternative location. I know the park well, trod every path thousands of times in all weather.

For Ms Doh: We are quite well acquainted with composting methods. Many of our gardeners have been in their allotments for over 30 years. I learn every day from them. It is a great gift. We employ a hot composting method at the compost station beside the allotments. We layer MATURE year old zoo poo, (delivered to the station from the aforementioned storage area by front end loader) into the first 4 X 8 ft stall with green material from our first and largest stall, and some broken up woody stems in alternating layers until it's about 5 feet high. When it breaks down, as previously described, we turn the material into a third 4 ft by 8 ft stall . I invite you to come by in the spring to see for yourself.

Please be assured , I have had the pleasure of working closely with many of the staff at High Park for many years. They are both knowledgeable, thoughtful and conscientious. But we must also, as adults, acknowledge that our dogs, their training for their own safety, their care and feeding, are our own responsibility.

Personally I do not find manure offensive. But one woman's ceiling is another woman's floor . Even the Queen of England has been known to tread the horse pucky fantastic in her Wellies at 'the farm'. And regretably poo will always come out of the critter fresh and fragrant....and that happens every day. If it smelled good, we might be tempted to eat it in a fit of pica. Smell is just nature's little way of saying " Not bread. Don't eat." Consider it your friend.

But speaking of offensive, you might be interested to know that the one thing dogs like better than zoo poo is human excrement. And yep, I've had the dubious privilege of witnessing a bi-ped dropping trow for this purpose on 2 occasions in the park in broad daylight, not 50 ft from a public washroom that was open. That also is part of your park experience. Infinitely more smelly by the way, as meat eater poo is. Something to ponder. What would the etiquette be for offering a spare baggie I wonder?

Now that you are clear on the location to which you seem to have taken such aesthetic exception, you will be well able to defend yourself by avoiding it. There is no danger to the public, no hazard. Just a bit of smell and a lot of imagination about the business end of a grazing bison. I take i t you will also be avoiding the zoo, in that case.

I have had an allottment in that garden since 1974, and for most of that time, the manure pile has been there. We pulled up carrots and ate them raw on the spot, without ill effect. In addition to the "big" manure pile, the millions of birds, squirrels, chipmunks, raccoons, skunks, groundhogs, coyotes, foxes, rabbits, mice, snakes, oppossums, cats, frogs, fish, insects, worms, slugs and soil organisms, etc. that live in and around the park are all constantly producing little manure piles. The problems of manure from industrial scale agriculture are truly a concern because of overcrowding and kinds of feed combined with the excess use of antibiotics used in these operations. In the normal, natural and diverse environment that humans have shared with other creatures, there has always been manure and without it, we would have starved. The "out of sight, out of mind" attitude about "waste" actually causes great environmental harm in the long run. The poop in question is recycled quickly while the plastic doodad we toss into the garbage today will linger in landfill for centuries. Now THAT's disgusting!

If you have information on how the Park is managing the waste pile, please share it with the rest of us. If there's evidence that the waste is being managed according to best practices and the laws of the city and province, then we'll likely all sigh with relief and go about our business. The best way to diffuse this debate is to provide everyone with the information we need to make sound decisions.

Jane - What I seem to have gotten after reading through all of the above (and thanks all for such a thorough discussion), reminds me of the Beetle's song, Let It Be by Paul McCartney

http://www.lyricstime.com/paul-mccartney-let-it-be-lyrics.html ...

with a chaser of Zappa "watch out where the huskies go" ...

Imagine ... "there are no problems ... " John Lennon http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/217781-there-are-no-problems-only-solutions

... let it bee ...

You're right, B. I don't need facts or clarification of an issue. I need to be condescended to with some trite song lyric philosophy. That'll solve everything.

Jane - not right & not trite ... the facts, as I said, from what I have read from all that has been shared already, are there.

Best Practice. This pile of zoo gnu poo is helping so many people and gardens, etc., is located in the best possible place and is best let be - it doesn't need to be managed.

Please don't read more (or less) again into what I'm saying.

Do the gardeners pay for the manure? Do they pay for the trucks and heavy equipment to move the manure? Or is this done out of the parks budget? Can fence go up around it and signs to let people know where it is.
This has nothing to do with dog owners nelance

Opps. Negligence !!! The fence around the leash free area is below par . There are holes that any dog can get through . Once a dogs knows where the manure is , they make it their duty to go there .

Good Afternoon,

SeeClickFix would like to emphasize the importance of respect when posting comments and issues. While we definitely encourage dialogue among users, we think it's important to emphasize constructive conversation that focuses on the identification, prioritization, and ultimate resolution of issues. Let's move the conversation forward in a respectful manner & let's steer away from unconstructive comments and personal attacks (which may be subject to removal in the future). As always, please don't hesitate to email contact@seeclickfix.com with any concerns, questions, or suggestions.

Regards,

Kevin
Community Manager
SeeClickFix

In the Description, Janet May states the supervisor of High Park claimed that, " ... if the area is fenced off the pick up truck will not be able to dump the ____ there."

Dog owners are expected to be in control of their dogs in both off leash and on leash areas. When a dog goes through a hole, it IS due to a dog owners negligence. Understandably sometimes dogs go places they shouldn't go. That is not being made an issue of.

The Supervisor of High Park would more likely respond to having holes in existing fences fixed. A solution - dog owners ask to have fences mended?

Thank you so much Kevin. Poor manners and saracsm in a post is usually more reflective of the poster than harmful of the target. I very much appreciate knowing that this forum is moderated or at least supervised.

The information as to safety and High Park staff practices has been answered.

FYI the fences are not meant to contain ALL dogs . Smaller dogs most definitely can get through. Some other dogs may well be able to jump the fences. And yes, we are responsible for our dogs at all times under all circumstances in the off leash and out. Training is critical, and worth the time and effort, especially if you want your dog to run off leash.

The reaosn the fences have are not impermeable is to allow wild critters to traffic as normally as possible. They have their own patterns which the Park endeavours to interfer with as little as possible. Again , we are responsible for our dogs and where they go. Besides, I'm sure we would not want to further 'gulag' the park with high chicken wire fences that make us feel even more that we are in a cattle run.

As well for whoever asked, the allotment gardeners pay rent to the city annually for services, including staff maintenance, a port-o-pottie on site and the city bin which takes hard garbage away. I believe this year it was close to $80.00. I do not know if any other user or stakeholder groups also pay. Do not know if there is a fee to reserve a picnic area for a large group, There MAY be a fee for Little league basebal diamonds. Otherwise I can't think of any other groups that pays.

I know that those who are at all sensible understand that a city park is inevitably a compromise for all those who use it. So as Kevin suggests, perhaps a deep breath.

PS: I notice that a post I thought had been lost was in fact posted. I guess then I have said all I have to say.

Jorge Ture, High Park Supervisor has made it known that the manure pile is being moved.

First, b, if i misunderstood the intent of your comment, then I apologize. I'm just a bit frustrated with trying to keep this debate about facts instead of opinions and anecdotes. If I took that frustration out on you erroneously, I am truly sorry.

Now back to facts:

There are vandals that are consistently taking the locks off the gates, and cutting the wire fences in the off-leash area. Also the new fences, while attractive, are too low and dogs are easily able to jump over them. The idea of full control is great in theory, but every dog will have a moment once in their life where they decide to disobey. It would be a dream if the Parks Department could keep up with the vandalism, and maybe raise the fence to a height that's impossible for dogs to jump. This is, however, entirely irrelevant to the possible safety hazard that the pile of zoo poo could present.

Why is it so threatening to suggest that the waste be managed more carefully? What is wrong with a fence? (fences have gates, so a truck could actually dump the s#*t there, if someone got out of the truck to open it.) With a base to control leaching of particles into the water table? With a sign to warn people that there's animal waste behind that fence?

It's not just about dogs. It's about people and their safety. It's about the equal opportunity for ALL visitors to enjoy the park. We're just asking the question "Is that giant pile of feces safe? And if you say is, where is the evidence of that?" I don't understand why that's such a big problem.

Jorge Ture, High Park Supervisor, has informed us that they are moving the site of the manure pile to the Zoo.

It looked like the pile was being moved this morning. Thank-you Toronto Parks for moving the excrement, while it is in a raw state, to an area that cannot be accessed by people, particularly children. I am sure that an arrangement will be made to ensure that the allotment gardeners will have access to the animal waste once it is properly composted. Perhaps there is an educational opportunity to teach people about proper composting of manure. I notice that there are zoos in the US that provide tours of their composting facilities to schoolchildren: http://www.zoo.org/page.aspx?pid=2001#.URPcSfKbqK8

Why not move it to the garden plot there now is a fenced in area next to the new waste bins

The pile of excrement has been moved, at least temporarily. Will be back if this site is used in the future as a giant storage for animal waste.