This is a residential road - 25 mph speed limit and no yellow line in the middle of the road. There shouldn't be so much stationary traffic on a daily basis.

Part of the problem is people constantly doing illegal U turns out the island by New Generations. I estimate 2 out of 3 cars leaaving St Josephs do this. Either the plice need to sit there and give tickets or they need to put up a barrier.

In afternoon rush hour, the traffic still is backed up about a mile on West Nancy Creek which is a residential road. It also backs up on the east side approaching the intersection of Ashford-Dunwoody and West Nancy Creek. This drives more traffic onto side roads like Parkcrest and Brenton.

This problem has become unbearable especially around 4p on week-days with traffic backing up on W. Nancy Creek at Ashford Dunwoody. Friday, coming from Murphey Candler Park, it took me 20 minutes to get to the Y because I had to sit through several light cycles. All times of the day the light stays green for north/south bound Ashford Dunwoody traffic (even when there are no/few cars) and stays red an inordinate amount of time for cars travelling east/west on W. Nancy Creek. Brookhaven, please check the timing of these lights. The lights at Ashford Dunwoody/Harts Mill/Marist School seem to have been adjusted for smoother traffic flow there.

We are often stuck here for 5-6 cycles before getting through going east to west across Ashford Dunwoody. Often only 1-2 cars can make it at a time since most westbound traffic is turning left and there are so many cars coming from the opposite direction. A designated left turn signal might be helpful.

I still don't see any improvement at this intersection. Cars wait for multiple light changes before they can cross the intersection.

It seems like a turn signal for westbound drivers on West Nancy Creek would be very helpful. And a traffic study of the intersection would give some data as to how best time the light. The Brookhaven mayor grew up near this intersection, seems like he would know how bad it gets.

I agree, a traffic study needs to be completed. I live 1/2 mile down on W. Nancy Creek Drive and can't get into or out of my driveway due to traffic.

Okay, we as regular drivers of W. Nancy Creek / Ashford Dunwoody, all seem to agree that the timing of the lights at this intersection need some monitoring / adjustments. Could we now hear from the City of Brookhaven? Sure would appreciate knowing that our voices are being heard and that some fixes are being considered! JG

They don't need to do a Study, they just need to go out one afternoon at 4 at look for themselves and then adjust the timing so there is more time for West Nancy Creek Traffic.

Where is the Brookhaven response/update?

Hello. We are aware of the timing adjustments needed perhaps. Thank you for your concern and a follow up will be posted accordingly.

Thanks, Brookhaven, for promptly responding! We look forward to any adjustments / improvements that can be made at this intersection. JG

Promptly? looks like its been open since August.

Hello, I live on West Nancy Creek and I hope something can be done to fix the light system, the backup along the street is a regular event and extremely frustrating.

The light stays red too long on West Nancy Creek - It's about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes long. Traffic is backed up over 1 mile at evening rush hour. This is too much for a residential road.

I still don't see any improvement in the traffic that backs up on W Nancy Creek on both sides of Ashford-Dunwoody. (aside from this being a holiday week) On this Thanksgiving weekend, I'm thankful that I no longer work in Vinings so I'm not trapped in this nightmare heading eastbound on W Nancy Creek. At least, going westbound, I can cut through on Brenton and head north to turn around on Chaucer, so I can go south on AshDun and turn on Parkcrest to get to W Nancy Creek.

I think there have been sufficient comments on this issue from people who regularly sit at this light. Could we please hear from City of Brookhaven? The light at Harts Mill/Ashford Dunwoody seems to be adjusted nicely to accommodate cars entering and exiting Marist at their peak hours. Does that intersection's light(s) timing have anything to do with not being able to adjust the W. Nancy Creek/Ashford Dunwoody lights? Please let us know you are reading these posts and whether or not adjustments can be made. Thanks! JG

This is a HUGE problem -- in order to accommodate a private school, we cannot get out of our neighborhoods in the late afternoon. City of Brookhaven, why are you not responding to this?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that PTOP was in charge of the timing of these lights.

This signal is being timed as part of the PTOP program. The consultant doing the timing work for PTOP has looked at this intersection and there is not much from a timing issue that they can do to help W Nancy Creek. The issue is the volume of traffic on Ashford Dunwoody. Giving more time to W Nancy will just back up A-D more which wont help relieve W Nancy. We are going to begin our Comprehensive Transportation Plan in January and the Ashford Dunwoody/Johnson Ferry Corridor and this intersection will be looked at closely for what near term and long term improvements can be made.

With all due respect to your response, it does not ring true with someone who travels W Nancy Creek several times daily. Even at peak afternoon/evening traffic hours, I see the traffic flowing smoothly (and at times, very few cars) on Ashford Dunwoody with an inordinate number of cars backed up half a mile eastbound and westbound on W Nancy Creek. I still wonder if the timing of this light is somehow connected to the sophisticated light timings at Harts Mill/Ashford Dunwoody/Marist School. That light has designated left turn arrows for all directions of traffic, including entering and exiting turn lights to and from the school. I certainly don't have the answer, but saying "there is not much from a timing issue that can be done" just is not acceptable. I have no idea who or what "PTOP" is.

I second JG's comments. The "consultant" probably does a fly by at morning or evening rush hour when Ashford Dunwoody is congested. This has become a huge problem over the past 12 months and was not an issue on a regular basis prior to that. I get the impression that the people who want to widen Ashford Dunwoody have no incentive to fix this or look into it because it helps their cause. And widening Ashford Dunwoody will just bring in more traffic. Unless the current City of Brookhaven officials improve their responsiveness on issues like this, they will become the former City of Brookhaven officials.

@Richard Meehan. With all due respect the consultant is wrong. There is a very long timing cycle between greens for West Nancy Creek Traffic at Ashford Dunwoody. And the Ashford Dunwoody traffic does not get backed up at this light. During peak traffic periods the Northbound Ashford Dunwoody traffic is getting backed up North of Ashford Dunwoody because of the 285/Lake Hearn/Perimeter Center limits. And of course the Southbound traffic is backed up at the Johnson Ferry Intersection where its been pointed out by many that they need to restripe the road and perhaps put in plastic lane divider tubes to sort out the traffic going straight vs. the limited traffic going right(west/ north/west).

So reducing the wait between green light cycles for West Nancy Creek would not negatively impact traffic movement n Ashford Dunwoody.

West Nancy Creek Drive is backed up again as far as I can see from my road. That's about a 1/2 mile of waiting cars.

Given the total lack of responsiveness by the City of Brookhaven (whose "official representative" has essentially said that nothing will be done), a next step may be to report this to the Atlanta Journal Constitution's "What's not working" columnist.

The City is aware of the situation there and is looking at it, but so far, we have not come up with any quick fixes that will improve the situation. As mentioned above, this intersection will be looked at closely in our Comp Transportation Plan and with the communities input, we can develop short term projects that we can implement as well as long term plan for the entire Ashford Dunwoody Corridor.

IN the meantime, I will get with the PTOP consultant again to re-look at the signal, but based on my observations, the backup is mostly because of traffic congestion on Ashford Dunwoody. It also is not backing up every day. I drove through on West Nancy Creek from Johnson Ferry to Ashford Dunwoody yesterday a little before 6:00 and there was no backup at all and I got through the light at Ashford Dunwoody on the first cycle. I also observed that the 5 or 6 vehicles in front of me, as well as a long line behind me were all "cut through" vehicles going from Johnson Ferry through to Ashford Dunwoody. Not a single one of the vehicles I could see turned into or came from any of the driveways or the side roads along either Old Johnson Ferry or West Nancy Creek. When we are able to make improvements to the intersection, it is likely to make this cut through problem worse, not better. It is one of the things that will need to be addressed as we study possible solutions to the traffic problem here.

Thanks

Richard

@Richard we aren't all making it up and its not due to congestion on Ashford Dunwoody. The problem isn't people not being able to turn onto Ashford Dunwoody Road, the problem is the light signalization is far to short for the number of cars.

Though your point is well taken about increasing cut through which is why I would object to turn lanes or other capacity enhancements.

However as it stands now, the congestion at that intersection is on West Nancy Creek not on Ashford Dunwoody. The timing cycle is far to long between Greens. Can you tell me how long the Green cycles are and how long it stays Green for West Nancy Creek?

Also since you have noted your observation of traffic on West Nancy Creek, what is your observation of Ashford Dunwoody at that intersection? Do you agree with my contention that the back up is not caused by that intersection but the intersections north and south of West Nancy Creek on Ashford Dunwoody and therefore reducing the time between green lights for West Nancy Creek wouldn't make matters much worse on Ashford Dunwoody?

Thanks
Eric Hovdesven

I believe that my question has not been addressed, Richard. That is: is there any correlation between the light at Ashford Dunwoody/Harts Mill/Marist School and the light timing at Ashford Dunwoody/W Nancy Creek? The light at the school seems to be timed "smooth as silk" with left turn arrows for all and long timing in all directions (stopping the traffic on Ashford Dunwoody to accommodate cross traffic). Would very much appreciate a direct response to this issue. JG

I agree with JG's point re Marist's light. How is it that there longer green times or more frequent green cycles doesn't back up Ashford Dunwoody unduly but the consultant feels it would at West Nancy and Ashford Dunwoody?

Can you please provide details of the timing of both of these lights during the day? Details like how long the green, including arrows, stays on and how long between green cycles when the sensor is activated/when cars are present.

http://www.perimetercid.org/pdfs/PTOP-Executive-Summary-082113.pdf For those who do not know what PTOP is I suggest going to the link. One of the measurements appears to be related to time stopped at lights. Which may suggest the reason for the poorly timed light. While it doesn't necessarily improve overall traffic flow through the entire Ashford Dunwoody Corridor inside 285 it keeping the West Nancy timed for underperforming Green Light time reduces the number of times cars on Ashford Dunwoody have to stop at this intersection. Which is a hollow victory since even though they stop less at this intersection it just doesn't improve their overall trip time since they will face the bottlenecks further down or up Ashford Dunwoody.

I will get the information on the cycle times and splits from the consultant and post them here as soon as I can.

Eric - regarding my observations of Ashford Dunwoody flow in the PM, from what I have seen, all of the intersections, including W Nancy Creek and Harts MIll, backup traffic to some degree. How much each intersection does, and how much the backup from one intersection "bleeds": into the one preceding it depends on the volume on Ashford Dunwoody in a particular day. This volume can vary significantly based on several factors including is there soccer at the YMCA that afternoon, does Marist have a special event/afternoon sports activity, how bad in the congestion on I-285. This last one probably has the biggest impact. On days I-285 is heavily congested, more vehicles will divert to Ashford Dunwoody. On those days, I would expect that there is also higher "cut through" traffic from Johnson Ferry on W Nancy which makes that backup worse as well. One of the things the PTOP program is looking at in the coming year is the possibility of implementing "Traffic Responsive" or "Traffic Adaptive" timing. Without getting to much into the technical details here, these systems basically will use a computer algorithm to dynamically adjust the signal timings based on traffic volumes on a given day. Right now, the signal timing is based on "Time of Day" plans that were developed and adjusted using "average" volumes for a particular time period. Under this system, the signal will call the same timing plan at the same time everyday, regardless of the volumes on that particular day. To get to the ability to use either Traffic Responsive or Traffic Adaptive, there will need to be an upgrade of the signal equipment, specifically the computers, detectors, and the communications between signals. We have applied for a grant to the Atlanta Regional Commission for the funding to do these upgrades and we should here about that soon after the New Year.

JG - regarding the Marist/Harts Mill light, as you mentioned, that signal does have Left Turn arrows and Left Turn lanes for the side roads. Besides the differences in volumes from those roads from W Nancy Creek, that is the biggest reason why that signal operates "more smoothly" for the drivers on Harts Mill and Marist. At W Nancy Creek, one car attempting to turn left on Ashford Dunwoody can block all other cars from going through the intersection. So even if there is green time for say 15-20 cars on a particular cycle, if the first or second car is turning left and has to wait for opposing traffic, you may only have 3 or 4 cars get through on that cycle which will further back up traffic on W Nancy. Since there are no Left Turn Lanes on W Nancy Creek, adding Left Turn Arrows for W Nancy will not improve the flow on that road. With turn arrows and no turn lanes, if the first car or 2 is going straight or right, they will block the left turners from proceeding on the arrow resulting in the same problem. The standards that the City must follow require that for a turn arrow phase to be installed, there must be a dedicated turn lane.

Adding left (and/or right) turn lanes on the W Nancy Creek at this intersection and subsequently adding the appropriate turn arrows if needed is ONE possible solution to this intersection that will be looked at. But as with any other solution, it will need to be studied and fully vetted with the community, through both the CTP process and any subsequent improvement plan development before it is implemented.

Finally, we are aware of and we do read all the comments posted and we are trying to respond to them as quickly as we can, However, depending on our schedule here and what other issues we are dealing with, it can occasionally take us some time to post a formal response to questions. We are very aware of the issue here and very much want to work with the community to develop a workable solution.

Thanks

The light at Ashwoody Trail and Perimeter Summit works even with long wait times. Each street entering AD has its own light so there is no competition when making a turn across traffic. I really think this is the answer here.

Thanks Richard. Looking forward to the timing information on the Marist and West Nancy intersections Until adaptive is in place they do need to give a little more time for West Nancy Creek, 285 congestion does seem to cause more problems for West Nancy than Ashford Dunwoody since Ashford Dunwoody doesn't have that lack of turn lane issue you identified.

Teresa raises a good point. Putting in lights at AD and West Nancy with turn signals and having the East side and West side turn green at different times would address the problem of the cars that are trying to turn left clogging up the intersection. It does work at Ashwoody Trail which like West Nancy only has one lane.

They also did that at Savoy Drive and Chamblee Dunwoody which quickly turned a very dangerous intersection into a safe intersection without negatively impacting its traffic capacity.

Perhaps you are not aware that the is a sign just the other side elf the traffic circle going toward Byrnwick: "No Thru Traffic"

How about to begin with stopping all the cars leavin the hospital who take make an ilegal U turn at the round about to head back down old Johnson Ferry.

To follow on why is there an opening to allow cars to make an illegal U turn leaving the hospital by New Generations. Either put a curb, put cameras there of start issuing tickets. Its clear that 2 out of 3 cars are making an ilegal turn.

There are a few people who dislike allowing an "illegal" left turn at the tear drop circle, but I never understood why this is illegal.

If you live in Byrnwyck or on West Nancy Creek, for example, how can you be expected to drive all the way down Johnson Ferry, and loop around down by the Kroger to come up Ash-Dun to approach W Nancy Creek.

If I chose not to do the "illegal" turn, I would instead u-turn in the empty office building parking lot, or I would turn around in the 2 neighborhoods on JFerry.

I truly believe that the light at Ashford Dunwoody/W. Nancy Creek is timed to benefit Marist School from 3:30 - 4:00p (at the very least) which leaves those of us traveling on W. Nancy Creek with extremely long red lights and of course no turn arrows. No one from the City or traffic department has directly refuted my observation. Traffic Engineers--hello? JG

DN your coment doesn't make sense. If you live in Bernwick you can either take a left or right when you leave. The point is the thousands of car leaving the hospital shouldn't be allowed to make an ilegal turn and go back down Old Johnson Ferry. If you are concerned about folks in the negiborhood then move the U turn south of New Generations.

Have you noticed that most cars at the Nancy Creek/Ashford Dunwoody lights heading east turn right anyway. Far better for them to not be allowed to take the illegal U turn and instead use Johnson Ferry totally bypassing Nancy Creek which is a residential road.

As for the consultant and "offical" please don't treat us like idiots. We can all read your spin about how successful PTOP is on the website. Its clear you have measured "success" on the accelerated thru speed for commuters on Ashford Dunwoody and don't care about people who live in the Nancy Creek area. Its clear the back up is much worse than a year ago. I bet for every car that goes faster on Ashford Dunwoody another is slowed on Nancy Creek. How about doing something for people who actually live here as oppsed to big business and drivers using Brookhaven as a cut thru to avoid the i285. People have asked for years for a safe crossing at Montgomery and get nothing, people have asked for years to start ticketing drivers running the red lights at Ashford Dunwoody and we get nothing. It seems all you care about are helping people drive quicker thru Brookhaven.

Hi Clive. I think it will help you understand if I provide a starting point. I was responding to Janice about the illegal turn at the tear drop circle. Use New Generations daycare as the starting point. If I pick up my child from New Gen, I don't want to drive down JFerry to Kroger, then up Ash-Dun to W Nancy Creek, to get to my home in Byrnwyck. This would change a 1-2 minute drive to a 9 minute drive (according to Google Maps, and with no traffic congestion considered).

DN, rather than make the illegal left turn out of New Generations, you could just exit via the front entrance of St. Joseph's and drive around the block. It will take you a few minutes out of your way, but the rest of the neighborhood shouldn't have to put up with thousands of cars making that illegal turn because it occasionally inconveniences a few residents.

I was going to say the same thing. Its unfortunate but the amount of traffic generated by St. Joseph's expansion led to that "compromise". So for now a better alternative may be going out the Peachtree Dunwoody exit of St. Joseph's. I will sometimes go through St. Joseph's to get to the Medical Center Marta station by going out from the traffic circle to Peachtree Dunwoody that way instead of going on Johnson Ferry to that intersection. All the stop signs and speed bumps drag out the drive but at least its not backed up.

What they should do is build a road to the back of the Medical Center MARTA station from Perimeter Summit Parkway, or at least a pedestrian walkway. That way we could get to the train without going all the way out to Peachtree Dunwoody which requires walking up a slight hill and then back down to the station.

I would not want to see the full Glenridge Connector plan built ( 400 to the Bridge to no where) but with those Townhomes being built in the path of the Glenridge Connector, I don't think that is a risk. And certainly you wouldn't want it to go all the way to Johnson Ferry or Old Johnson Ferry except perhaps as a small road with just one lane in each direction.

Many of the postings are about the timing at the Ashford-Dunwoody Rd / West Nancy Creek intersection; however, I 100% agree with the postings that are regarding the St. Joseph's traffic making illegal left turns at the roundabout in front of New Generations. When the roundabout was first installed, a curb was built that jutted out from the circle towards the stop light at Johnson Ferry to prevent the left turn (look at the road there and you can see the "ghost" of that curb). Somewhere along the line, it was removed and it should be replaced as it would at best prevent left turns and at the least make it much more difficult. What official could make that happen? I truly believe it would resolve a lot of the stop light issues at Ashford-Dunwoody & West Nancy Creek since there would be a lot less traffic cutting through.

Add me as another who sees the illegal U-turns as the root cause of this issue. Its clear 75% plus of traffic leaving St Josephs is making an illegal U-turn. This traffic should be forced onto Johnsons Ferry by putting the curb back into place that was removed.

I live on Parkcrest and in the last few months there is a massive increase in cars speeding up the street in the late afternoon as drivers are getting frustrated with the delay at the Ashford Dunwoody lights. This is making the street and area unsafe for walkers and children and most of these drivers are from St Josephs and have made an illegal U-turn to begin with.

I cannot understand why the illegal U turn is not being addressed and also want to know who can put the curb back in to force drivers onto either Johnson Ferry or PT Dunwoody. Does anyone have a name or is it the officals posting on here?

That roundabout is partly in Sandy Springs according to the maps. Have you reported the problem to anyone there?

I believe that Nancy has identified the real problem -- I just couldn't understand why this problem has arisen only in the past 18 months or so and the removal of the curb would certainly explain the timing. I plan to report this to Rebecca Chase Williams (councilperson for District 1) and to file a City of Brookhaven traffic complaint (available on the City website under Departments, Police). I seriously doubt that Sandy Springs will care about it -- it routes all the traffic into Brookhaven.

Oh, I agree, There's no reason for Sandy Springs to care about the problem, but I don't think Brookhaven has the authority to enforce u-turn laws in Sandy Springs or replace curbs in Sandy Springs.

There used to be a "No U Turn" sign at the end of the roundabout, but it is no longer there. Maybe that would account for more U turns occurring there. The real problem, it seems to me, that there is far more traffic during that period than the road and lights can handle. I don't think changing U turns or the signal at Ashford Dunwoody will fix anything. Find another way to get where you're going.

Scott stopping the U turns will reduce dramatically the traffic going thru Nancy Creek and take the pressure of the lights. We all need to put in complaints to get the curb re-installed. I bet when the island was created there was a promise made that no U turns would occur. This needs to be looked into as to what changed (or did Sandy Springs remove the curb to re-route traffic thru Brookhaven).

Janice, I believe you are absolutely right. I filed a Brookhaven traffic report yesterday and the Officer responding to it confirmed that the circle is in Sandy Springs and that he has fielded MANY complaints about the illegal left turns. While his hands are tied in terms of enforcement, he forwarded the complaint to the Sandy Springs Police Department. I also wrote to Rebecca Chase Williams who is the Councilperson for District 1 and would encourage everyone to do that. Ultimately, this problem will decrease property values in the neighborhood (would you buy a house on West Nancy Creek if you went to see it around 5pm on a weekday?)

Like others who live in the neighborhood, I get caught in this mess on occasion. To call it frustrating is an understatement.

I would like to propose an experiment. Disable the lights and have a police officer direct traffic during the afternoon rush hour. Do this every day for a month or so and then analyze the results. It might be cheaper to pay for an officer for 10 hours a week than to pay for a study and upgrade the equipment, and s/he would be more intelligent than anything we could build. If an officer can't improve things, then return to the current system with the knowledge that a much larger solution is required. Furthermore, having an officer present would ensure that the intersection is not blocked, which happens from time to time, as well.

Making the lights more efficient will just increase the traffic on Nancy Creek. The problem is the illegal truns by St Josephs allowing the traffic to enter Nancy Creek to begin with. This volume of traffic should not be allowed on a 25mph residential street and was never intended.

I would only cost a couple of thousand to replace the curb that was removed at the roundabout last year.

So I noticed tonight virtually all the cars leaving St Josephs making u turns heading down Nancy Creek. No question the problwm is with the volume of traffic not the lights. Something needs to be done to re-route this traffic as Nanc Creek is not designed to handle this volume,

Block Old Johnson Ferry so no traffic can enter it from the roundabout. That'll stop the u-turns.

There are only two ways to get to Old Johnson Ferry - from Johnson Ferry and from the hospital; and they both go through the roundabout. Which one are you going to block? Janice has the right answer - West Nancy Creek was never designed for that much traffic.

I just looked at the history of this problem: Brookhaven last commented 10/31/2013. Sandy Springs has never commented.

I just returned home from the St. Joseph's campus and noticed that all of the parking decks except the one that backs up to Peachtree-Dunwoody direct the traffic out the back way which leads to the roundabout. The signs at the parking deck exits point towards the back exit for I-285 and GA 400 and that may be what is driving so much traffic to illegally use the roundabout to go down Old Johnson Ferry. Additionally, there is no sign to direct them to turn right onto Johnson Ferry to get to 285 or 400. Since St.Joe's and the roundabout are in Sandy Springs/Fulton County perhaps Mayor Max Davis needs to meet with Mayor Rusty Paul about having the curb replaced to prevent traffic from St. Joseph's accessing Old Johnson Ferry and erecting signs at the roundabout to inform traffic there is no left turn and they should turn right on Johnson Ferry to get to 285 and 400. I'm tired of not being able to leave my neighborhood between 430p and 630p most weekdays. Mayor Max - how about it?

I have been monitoring the comments on this issue especially with the traffic at the roundabout. As has been pointed out, the actual roundabout is in Sandy Springs although the illegal traffic movement there is resulting in an increase in the traffic in Brookhaven. I have talked with our PD and while they can not enforce the illegal U-turns there, they were going to talk with the Sandy Springs PD to make them aware of the situation and see about having them enforce. I also have a meeting scheduled next week with my PW counterparts at Sandy Springs and plan on discussing this issue with them. If we do not get an adequate response from the PD and PW staff at Sandy Springs, I will elevate this up to our City Manager who can take the appropriate action with her counterparts there.

Please note for future reference that only Brookhaven monitors this See Click Fix Site. The City of Sandy Springs does not use or monitor SCF. If you have any issue that needs to be addressed by COSS, the best way to report is through their website ( http://www.sandyspringsga.org/Contact-Us/Report-an-Issue) or their Citizens Response Center ( 770-730-5600)

Thanks

Thanks Richard, Also Nancy made a very good observation 30 minutes before your comment about the signs directing 400 and 285 traffic to the traffic circle. Could you ask Sandy Springs to put in 285 and 400 directional signs in the traffic circle pointing them to Johnson Ferry and then a sign at Johnson Ferry and Old Johnson Ferry pointing them North on Johnson Ferry to access 285 and 400.

(Frankly why they would be directing 285 east traffic towards the circle is improper since its one quick right out of the front entrance to St. Josephs and another right on to 285 East)

That is going to be part of my discussion with Sandy Springs.

Great to see some progress on this.

Thank you very much, Richard, for taking an interest in this. I have written to Rebecca Chase Williams and filed a Brookhaven traffic complaint about the roundabout problem. In addition to the signage, the removal of the "teardrop" curb plus the office building driveway make all the illegal left turns possible -- if the driveway was not there, most cars could not make the turn without stopping and backing. And, of course, the removal of the "teardrop" curb was the biggest contributing factor to the dumping of huge volumes of traffic onto Old Johnson Ferry and West Nancy Creek. As part of your discussions with Sandy Springs, it would be very interesting to find out why the curb was removed and what happened to the No Left Turn signs.

Anne, I also wrote a letter to Rebecca and agree it would be interesting to know why the curb and sign were removed and by who. Was it legally removed? Also I notice they widened the flat sidewalk and changed the yellow lines to make it easier for cars to make the U turn. Also i note systematically first the curb was removed then the pavement flattened then the sign a few months later. The cynic in me thinks this was planned deception by St Josephs or similar as when the roundabout was constructed it was specifically stated that no traffic could be pushed onto Johnsons Ferry.

Thank you, Richard. It may also behoove SS to have some police at the intersection of Peachtree-Dunwoody and Johnson Ferry in the late afternoon to direct traffic and prevent the horrible gridlock that occurs since it is a contributing factor to the cut through traffic onto Old Johnson Ferry and West Nancy Creek. And Eric, I agree that it doesn't make sense to direct traffic to the roundabout when it is the long way to 400 and 285 west. I can only think it is to keep traffic from backing up on the St. Joseph's campus if everyone tries to exit onto Peachtree-Dunwoody. Richard, I look forward to hearing back from you as to the results of your meeting with Sandy Springs next week. If it would be helpful for any of us to post on the SS website, I would be more than glad to do that.

Richard, were you able to meet with SS officials and if so, can you share the outcome?

Last week was fine -- spring break. This week, things are back to the horrible norm --- traffic pouring out of St. Joseph's , making the illegal left turn and jamming West Nancy Creek from Ashford Dunwoody halfway up Old Johnson Ferry. This is a disgrace. In addition to calling on Sandy Springs to do the right thing here, someone should take St. Joseph's Hospital to task. As Nancy pointed out on March 7, 2014:
"I just returned home from the St. Joseph's campus and noticed that all of the parking decks except the one that backs up to Peachtree-Dunwoody direct the traffic out the back way which leads to the roundabout. The signs at the parking deck exits point towards the back exit for I-285 and GA 400 and that may be what is driving so much traffic to illegally use the roundabout to go down Old Johnson Ferry. Additionally, there is no sign to direct them to turn right onto Johnson Ferry to get to 285 or 400."
We all "signed up" to form Brookhaven, Sandy Springs and Dunwoody because DeKalb and Fulton counties wouldn't address issues that affect our quality of life. I would most certainly hope, Richard, that Sandy Springs is responsive to this issue. All of us who are affected by this will be most interested in the outcome of your discussions and hope that you will also approach St. Joseph's about their traffic "dumping."

City of Brookhaven is aware the traffic back-up. An update will be provide, thank you.

I was able to talk to Brad Edwards who is COSS's senior traffic engineer about the situation at the traffic circle after the meeting we both attended (which was for other issues, not this one). He understands the issue there agreed to look into why the portion of the island was taken out and what options are possible. He was not aware of the issue before I talked with him and was going to check with their Community Development Department to see if the island removal was permitted as part of a development of the building on the SE corner of JF and OJF. We also discussed possibly of getting updated traffic counts to quantify the volumes. (If done it would need to be after spring break week for the public schools). He was going to get back to me after looking from his end. I will be following up with him this week.

Thanks

Thank you so much, Richard, for the update. We can only hope that the spirit of cooperation apparently demonstrated during your meeting with Brad Edwards continues and that there is a positive resolution to this. As I mentioned in a previous note, it might also be worthwhile at some point to involve St. Josephs Hospital in the discussion as their signage and traffic is certainly a key contributing factor. I will look forward to hearing how this moves forward and appreciate the priority you have placed on this issue.

Great, and thanks for bringing this to the attention of Sandy Springs officials. This situation obviously greatly affects Brookhaven residents -- and has almost no impact on people who live in Sandy Springs. Therefore, those of us who live in the Ashford Dunwoody / West Nancy Creek / Old Johnson Ferry area appreciate your making that contact with Sandy Springs officials -- we look forward to seeing something done to improve, if not alleviate, this daily mess. Please keep us posted with your follow-up contacts. Again, thank you, Mr. Meehan. Jane G.

I agree with the previous posters. Thank you, Richard, for following through on this with Sandy Springs. Hopefully the end is in sight for the daily back up on West Nancy Creek and Old Johnson Ferry! I, too, look forward to hearing updates as available.

Richard, another thought - could you ask Sandy Springs to at least install informational signs at the roundabout directing traffic towards 1-285 and 400 before anything else is done? Those signs are needed regardless. Thanks.

I notice there is a new sign up there showing its a roundabout on the Sandy Springs side. This will make things worse.

Richard Meehan: On March 24 you commented that Brad Edwards of Sandy Springs was going to look into this situation and that there would be an attempt to do some counts and address this issue. An update would be much appreciated. Also, someone in Sandy Spings should know why the teardrop curb was removed and why St. Joseph's is permitted to dump all of their traffic onto our neighborhood streets. I firmly believe that they need to be made part of the solution and need to direct traffic onto Peachtree Dunwoody rather than sending it out onto Old Johnson Ferry.

Last month there seemed to be some momentum to address this problem but it not appears to have fallen back to the bottom of the pile.

What is happening with this? There is now a sign specifically saying it is a roundabout at St Joes. Parkcrest now also has cars racing up the hill from 4:30 onwards due to impartient drivers.

This issue is having serious implications to people who live in the West Nancy Creek area and needs to be fixed asap. I don't feel safe letting my kids out now in the evening on their bikes Brookhaven is mean't to listen to residents not facilitate people who live and work in other areas use our residential streets as a rat run to avoid taking the freeway or larger roads.

We also need speed humps on Parkcrest to stop these people cutting thur drive so fast. How do we get this done?

Cut through traffic on West Nancy Creek in the evening is HORRIBLE! The other evening I needed to be somewhere and left my house at 6:20pm. Traffic was backed up all the way to Old Johnson Ferry and all the way up Old Johnson Ferry. This is totally unacceptable and the silence on the part of Brookhaven is unacceptable. Richard Meehan mentioned in his post of 3/24/14 that he was to hear back from Brad Edwards who is COSS's senior traffic engineer and if he didn't hear back Richard was going to follow up with Sandy Springs that week. Richard - we need an update and we need some action. This area has always been the last on the list when we were part of DeKalb County government. We expect better of Brookhaven.

City of Brookhaven and Richard Meehan: Would you at least give us the courtesy of a reply to the repeated questions about the status of this matter? While considerable resources were devoted to a Parks and Recreation survey, it is clear that the quality of life (or lack thereof) issues that this traffic problem raises are not deemed important enough to address. If this forum is not the place to raise these issues, I am happy to write to Mayor Davis. If additional leverage is needed, I am also happy to bring this to the attention of the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

Richard, you gave us hope when you said you were meeting with Sandy Springs officials, and now I see that the squeaky wheel gets the grease -- all posters backed off thinking we would get something from you, and all we get is silence on this matter. Are you there for us? A current status report would be greatly appreciated letting us know that the curb might be put back along with the missing sign (both at the roundabout), AND some indication that you have considered meeting with St. Joseph's officials (there is no way their signage should be directing people out that way -- toward Old Johnson's Ferry). Please show some goodwill (and interest) toward those of us in the neighborhoods of Brookhaven who are affected every single day (and sometimes two or three times in a day). Your update will be greatly appreciated. JG

This problem is getting worse. It looks like rather than fix the problem all Sandy Springs have done is changed the signs to now make it an offical roundabout at St Josephs. Today I noticed more cars than ever racing thru the side streets off West Nancy Creek. Can we either have an update or who do we have to raise this to?

Also can someone please tell me how we can get at least one Brookhaven patrol car on Parkcrest as I also noticed a lot of cars speeding up Parkcrest today so to avoid the intersection and instead head back down Ashford Dunwoody. This behaviour makes a mockery of the signalling changes as all it does is make people drive through residential streets even more. I also agree we need real speed humps on West Nancy and Parkcrest.

Sorry for the delay in updating on this issue. I did talk with Sandy Springs last month and have followed up with them several times, but they are still looking into it from their end. Unfortunately, this is not as urgent an issue to them as it is to us in Brookhaven. I have asked them about the changes in the island and they said they needed to pull the development plans for the office on the corner of JF/OJF to find out if and why it was removed before they can do anything, including adding a “No U-Turn Sign” at the roundabout.

I have also worked with the PTOP consultant to relook at the timings as W Nancy and Ashford Dunwoody. They have added a few more seconds to W Nancy in the afternoon, which may help some, but is not going to solve the problem. I am also working with our PD to get them to patrol and look into the speeding issue on Parkcrest Dr.

This issue is of a concern to us. However, in looking at it, there are no quick fixes that the City can implement that will solve the issue. If we make improvements to the intersection at W Nancy/Ashford Dunwoody whether adding turn lanes or adjusting timing, that is just going to encourage more cars from Johnson Ferry to cut through. We continue to work to optimize the timing of this intersection, but in the afternoon it is already saturated on both roads. To add time to one direction takes it away from the other and backs up traffic further. Both Old Johnson Ferry and West Nancy Creek have traffic calming measures in place to reduce speeding and discourage cut trough’s and while the speeding is not the issue, the cut through traffic is not being discouraged from using that route.

I am continuing to work on addressing this issue, working with PCID and Sandy Springs on the overall traffic situation, and including working contacting St Joes to discuss their signage and also talking to their employees about the use of that drive/roundabout on Old Johnson Ferry. We are also started to work on our Comprehensive Transportation Plan. The Ashford Dunwoody Corridor, including W Nancy Creek Dr and the cut through traffic issue in this area have been identified as problem areas that need to be addressed in our plan. This plan will guide and set priorities for transportation improvements citywide. I encourage you to participate in the process by contacting a steering committee member (found on the CTP page on the city website: http://brookhavenga.gov/city-government/boards-commissions/steering-committees , attending the Steering Committee and Public meetings to provide input, submit comments to the Transportation Email, and participate in surveys and other public outreach that the City and their Consultant will be doing throughout this process. Our schedule is to have this plan completed by the end of July for presentation to the City Council in August.

Thanks

Trevor L., The city does have a program to add speed humps to a residential street under our Traffic Calming Program . This process does require a petition from the neighborhood and a speed/traffic study. If you email me at my city email address, I can send you the initial petition forms and detail information on the process so you can get started.

Thanks

Richard: Thank you for the update. Why does the city not publicize the meetings of the CTP steering committee? I just looked on the City website and found that there was a meeting earlier this week that I knew nothing about. And no where can I find the names of the people on the steering committee. It would be very helpful if you could provide a little more information. I would be very happy to contact one or more of the Steering Committee members and to provide photographs and information about the removal of the curb and the No U-Turn sign from the roundabout at Old Johnson Ferry. I will also provide photographs of the signage on the St. Joseph's campus which dumps their traffic onto the roundabout and subsequently onto our residential streets.

Just to be clear, the CTP committees are NOT about cities like Sandy Springs or companies like St. Joseph violating terms of development agreements and unilaterally dumping traffic on to local streets in DeKalb.

This traffic circle was put in with the no U-turn and curbs as a part of the condition for that office space that they have on the corner. I think people need to contact St. Joseph and push for those development plans and agreed to conditions that Richard references.

As to individual engineering or signage on an intersection that is not what the CTP is supposed to be about. As I was told this is just a means to meet State Government requirements for developing an an overall master transportation plan. Thus its not about deciding where traffic calming goes or where a street sign gets installed or a timing of a traffic light. Its a mile high look down at the future not a street signage, traffic signal, or traffic calming inquiry.

As to the goal of reducing traffic and congestion, with Dunwoody approving tons of Office Space just across the flyover bridge without a component of residential space in the Perimeter Community Improvement District PCID so that more people who work in PCID can live in the PCID traffic will just get worse. We can't close the street down and we can't pave our way out of congestion since as we have learned in the past "if you build it they will come"

So if you 4 lane Ashford Dunwoody, more people will use Old Johnson Ferry to get to West Nancy Creek to get to it.

I would take the pictures of the intersection to St. Joseph's, perhaps get one of the local newspapers to write an article. The conditions that led to this traffic circle being installed were related to that empty lot where Old Johnson Ferry used to go through. St. Joseph's did all that, and paid for it, so that they could develop that lot in the future. And I recall specifically that the curb and other features were a part of the agreed condition that they would not let St. Joseph's traffic turn left onto Old Johnson Ferry. Unfortunately, I was just a tangential participant so I did not retain or work on the specific conditions. I just was at the meeting where they were agreed to. And once the approval plans for that lot are pulled it should be there, or St. Joseph's should have it or whoever keeps the development records for Byrnwyck may have it since their representatives were very active.

As to speeding I've noticed Sandy Springs has a couple of solar powered permanent signs that detect your speed. It's not a big trailer, just a sign under the existing speed limit sign. This would be helpful since many people who speed do it unconsciously, alternatively it shames the speeder when a pedestrian or neighbor is near by and can see just how fast the car is driving and perhaps take a plate #..

Thank you Eric for this information. Are you saying that it is useless to attend the CTP meetings? Or is that the forum where there will be an attempt to 4 lane Ashford Dunwoody (which would be a total disaster to those of us who live in these neighborhoods as you point out)? If that is where plans will be made to destroy our communities, we need to become very involved.

With respect to the Old Johnson Ferry roundabout, I actually have pictures of the roundabout from several angles showing the "ghost" where the curb was taken out. And we have Google Maps pictures of the missing No U Turn sign. I am happy to and will write letters to the Brookhaven Reporter and the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

You say that we should obtain the approval plans for that lot -- I have no idea how to go about that or even where to start. And, in your view, would St. Josephs likely produce anything that shows they have operated in bad faith? It clearly seems that the guilty party here is St. Josephs -- perhaps abetted by Sandy Springs. If you can point us in the right direction, we'll give it a go.

Thanks

Sorry I did not mean to imply the CTP meetings were about 4 laneing Ashford Dunwoody. And when there are meetings for the master transportation plan people should attend. I was just saying that the CTP is not addressing specific issues like this traffic circle, as far as I know. I think Richard mentioned it just in addressing the bigger picture of traffic.

I brought of the plan documents in response to Richard's comment that Sandy Springs was pulling them. I'm not sure what they will say in writing but I am sure what St. Josephs promised.

Richard's comment: " I have asked them about the changes in the island and they said they needed to pull the development plans for the office on the corner of JF/OJF to find out if and why it was removed before they can do anything, including adding a “No U-Turn Sign” at the roundabout."

St. Josephs doesn't have to give it, but it seems to me your neighborhood should go speak with them. I forget the persons name, but its either the facilities or property development department.

And if they aren't responsive that's when a story in the Reporter or Crier or something might get their attention. A story, not a letter to the editor.

http://www.thecrier.net/article_d20626b1-e1db-5f86-8876-ff93070402ce.html

Key line from this 2006 article: "As is the case now, St. Joseph’s traffic will not be able to leave the facility and drive southeast on Old Johnson Ferry into the residential neighborhoods."

Joan Smeltzer is no longer at Brynwyck, but Rebecca may have knowledge of all this or know who in Byrnwyck does. They probably have some sort of written agreement.

Eric and Richard, thanks for the responses. Assuming that original documents show no curb cut or U turn (which surely is the case) as that was originally built and promised how do things proceed? Does Sandy Springs act? If not will we be able to get The City of Brookhavens attorneys to resolve this?

I understand that papers can write articles and all but I would have thought Brookhaven can apply legal pressure on St Josephs and Sandy Springs and even ultimately decide to just block Old Johnson Ferry north of Byrnwick if no action is taken.

Richard Meehan mentioned in his note, "I have asked them about the changes in the island and they said they needed to pull the development plans for the office on the corner of JF/OJF to find out if and why it was removed before they can do anything, including adding a “No U-Turn Sign” at the roundabout." We are not asking they add a No U-Turn Sign, but replace the one that has gone missing. See screen print of Google Maps. If you go on the street view and navigate around the roundabout, Google shows the No U-Turn Sign. Proof positive that the sign was there. At the very least, whoever is responsible for signage on public roads (Fulton County or City of Sandy Springs) should replace this missing sign, the stub of which is still in the ground.

Nancy - good point.

I'm thinking a truck knocked it over, or a car ran into it. Anyone check the behind the bushes? Maybe it can just be propped back up.

Eric, the truck would have been very selective to have only knocked over the No U-Turn Sign as the sign right behind it which faces traffic approaching the roundabout from Johnson's Ferry Rd is still standing.

The "No thru traffic" sign is gone.

Eric I don't think a truck knocked it over. It was removed (another sign was knocked down but not the U turn one). Please note there is also now also a now a black round about sign implying the U turn is legal. Here is the order I have noticed:

Curb physically removed 15 months ago, U turn sign 3 months ago, new sign errected two weeks ago. I note these actions roughly align with the increasing extra congestion at West Nancy Creek/Ashford Dunwoody.

So in a nutshell one sign has been physically removed and another has been put up. Either there is a Sandy Springs work order showing this happened or not. I cannot imagine a curb can be removed in the middle of the lanes, another curb lowered on the sidewalk edge and sign changed without some kind of offical consent unless St Joes got a contractor to do this illegally who had access to signage.

I am also getting more suspicious that some of these actions were performed once there was awareness of the signaling changes at Ashford Dunwoody. Its just too much of a co-incidence.

And to add on to Janice's comment, the street view on Google maps shows the old sign that was removed and replaced with the black roundabout sign...

The Google images I have posted are dated October, 2012

Richard Meehan: Please read the article that Eric references in his May 1 post:

"http://www.thecrier.net/article_d20626b1-e1db-5f86-8876-ff93070402ce.html
Key line from this 2006 article: "As is the case now, St. Joseph’s traffic will not be able to leave the facility and drive southeast on Old Johnson Ferry into the residential neighborhoods.
Joan Smeltzer is no longer at Brynwyck, but Rebecca may have knowledge of all this or know who in Byrnwyck does. They probably have some sort of written agreement."

We residents should not have to track this down and confront St. Josephs. That is why we have the City of Brookhaven to represent us. You are part of the City administration and Rebecca Chase Williams is a councilperson. How about the two of you talk and get the ball rolling to find out what happened and to get the signs reinstalled (as Nancy points out, the signs are not being added, they are being replaced as the picture clearly shows) and the curb rebuilt at the roundabout.
Thanks, Anne

Also I notice that the yellow stripes have been removed and repainted so now someone does not need to cross a yellow line to do a U turn. In other words everything is possible is being done to encourage cars to U turn and head down Old Johnson Ferry.

I don't see how this can be down without a hearing and offical work orders.

Sandy Springs PW got back with me this week. They have acknowledged that the No U-turn sign is missing and they have a work order in place to replace the sign with a new one. With the NO U turn sign in place, COSS PD will be able to enforce and write citations.

Regarding the roundabout sign, that is a standard sign for roundabouts required by the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) the standards we (and Sandy Springs) must follow. It is a regulatory sign indicating to a motorist to circle to the right instead of cutting the wrong way to the left. Placement of that sign does not mean that a U-turn is permitted.

As for the changes to the curb, there records indicate that the curb was always like it is now and that the office development on the southeast corner of Old Johnson Ferry and Johnson Ferry and their drive on Old JF was there before the roundabout was built. If their information is incorrect, i would contact Sandy Springs PW directly. Please note that based on the dates provided above, Sandy Springs either was not a city yet or was just starting themselves, and many of the staff currently there were not there back in 2006-07

I will continue to work with Sandy Springs and PCID to contact St Josephs about clarifying signage and to inform their employees to not make illegal u-turns at the roundabout.

We will also continue to address this issue as part of the CTP process. The CTP looks at all of the traffic and transportation issues in the city. From that process, a plan is developed identifying the potential projects, the general scope of those projects, budget estimates, and, based on anticipated funding, a prioritization and timeline for implementing any projects. While it does need to address long term (20 year) horizon, it will also look at the short term and determine what improvements will be made in the next 5-10 years. This is a citizen driven process and citizen input into what needs to be done and what is important to you is a large piece of determining the plan and the final project list. The master schedule for the CTP and the other plans underway (Land Use, Parks, Buford Hwy) is posted on the city website: http://brookhavenga.gov/city-government/boards-commissions/steering-commitees/transportation-

our next CTP meeting is the open house on May 28th at 6-8 PM at Briarwood Park Recreation Center.

Thanks

Dear Richard Meehan
The Sandy Springs Department of Public Works is clearly not telling or doesn't have the entire story. The photo attached (Google Maps October 2012) clearly shows that there was a teardrop curb that made illegal left turns impossible and also shows the missing No U Turn sign. Further, the date of construction of the office building on the southeast corner of Old Johnson Ferry and Johnson Ferry and their drive on Old JF is a matter of public record which will be easier for you to obtain that for us plain citizens to ferret out.

While we appreciate what you have done so far, there is much more that we need to resolve this very terrible situation. And, again, I hope that you will contact Councilperson Rebecca Chase Williams who lives in Byrnwyck and who should be very sensitive to this traffic nightmare.

Please read my previous message: we voted for the city of Brookhaven to have elected officials and an administration represent us -- not to be told that we need to contact the Sandy Springs Department of Public Works. And please pursue getting the original documents referenced in the Dunwoody Crier article in which St. Joseph's pledged not to dump traffic into our neighborhoods in exchange for the construction of the roundabout.

Thank you for prodding Sandy Springs to replace the no UTurn sign. It is also mission critical to hold St. Josephs accountable for their signage and the subsequent dumping of their traffic into our neighborhoods. Thank you.

Richard, asking St. Joseph's to put in a "request" that their employees not make illegal u-turns at the roundabout is first of all not the answer, and secondly, it's a tiny, tiny Band-Aid on a huge, gaping wound. Thank you for offering to plan a meeting to this effect, but that just isn't even good use of your time, in my opinion. I venture to say it's not the employees who are the major problem. St. Joseph's agreed not to route traffic through the W. Nancy Creek area, and somewhere that agreement is memorialized. It is not up to us, the citizens of Brookhaven and this immediate neighborhood to approach the City of SS and/or to bring the documents to light or enforce the terms of the agreement. It doesn't matter who was employed by the City of SS "back when" -- the documents and agreement should speak for themselves and should remain enforceable no matter who is employed or elected since then, and we ask you and the elected/appointed officials of Brookhaven to speak for us and put pressure on City of SS AND the hospital. I agree with Anne H. that I hope Rebecca will get involved in this crucial matter since she lives in Byrnwyck, AND she is our councilperson. Before we signed the contract to purchase our home in Murphey Candler Park 35 years ago we came to the area in the late afternoon to monitor the traffic flow during ballpark season/hours. We determined that it was quite tolerable. If I were to do this today (especially west of Ashford Dunwoody), I would run for the hills before I would purchase a house in this area (west of Ashford Dunwoody) and face the daily late afternoon traffic nightmare from St. Joseph's to Ashford Dunwoody. Who in the City of Brookhaven hierarchy is willing to step up and confront St. Joseph's asking them to honor their original agreement AND perhaps include SS officials in that meeting -- that elongated curb (which virtually makes u-turns impossible) needs to be re-constructed -- I promise you it was there after St. Joseph's made their agreement (and before traffic became this daily nightmare). I again ask our City of Brookhaven officials to "go to bat" for us against City of SS and St. Joseph's. JG

Why in the world would they put a no U turn sign back when they have removed the central curb, the northside edge and the double yellow lines making it easier to turn? Why not just put a curb in and put the yellow lines back the way they were. Then people cannot physically make the illegal U turn.

I truly think it is time for Brookhaven to get an attorney involved to pull all the work orders related to this issue. It is clear that systematically work has been done to enable traffic to cut thru W Nancy Creek.

I'm confused, that s curb that is shown in the pictures with the dirt or wood chip in the middle is still there, just the no U-Turn is missing, or am I looking at the wrong thing?

Three things: First, Janice, I agree wholeheartedly with you that it is time for Brookhaven to "fish or cut bait" and to either retain counsel or locate the documents that lay out the promises made at the time.

Second, Eric, I know that I was confused the first time someone mentioned the "teardrop curb" so I went to the circle and looked. I've attached the picture I posted on May 6 and have added red lines to show when the "curb" or perhaps yellow lines were originally that reinforced the No U-Turn sign.

Third, Richard: we are all getting quite impatient about the lack of any real progress on this matter. When you read the article that Eric referenced from the Dunwoody Crier in 2006, it is quite clear that St. Joseph's has broken many of the promises made as a condition of getting approval for the round about. The gloves need to come off and our elected officials need to do what the constituents are asking.

Anne

Thanks Anne, yea, i don't remember what that was, as I recall the left turn into that office parking space was always allowed just not the U-turn. I do think, the curbed traffic circle there now clearly maintains the shape that makes it clear that U-turns should NOT be done there. Plus it does make it a U-Turn so going all the way around the circle is not a natural movement. But clearly the U-Turn sign is desperately needed there to make that point clear.

Then as Richard said Sandy Springs can enforce the rule.

I do think the HOA(s) or what ever group(s) are over there should contact St. Joeseph's and let them know of the displeasure with the traffic. There is no reason they can't station one of their security people out there from time to time at Rush Hour once the sign is put back up. Also it will be a reminder for them as they plan their future expansions.

Eric,

In terms of curbs:

1, If you head up the hill from St Josephs towards Johnson Ferry as you past the island (to your left) on your right there was a curb before the sidewalk. This curb was removed making it easier for a car to swing around to make a U turn. Before the curb made it harder. I remember watching cars take 2 or 3 attempts to make the U turn before this was removed as it restricted the turnng circle. This is one curb that has been removed.

2, There used to be a curb extened from the island to block U turns. This has been removed.

Thanks,

Janice

To support Anne's remarks regarding her second point, Google Maps shows what remained of the yellow paint to prohibit traffic and enforce the No U Turn sign in their February, 2008 view.

I agree with all of the previous posters that it is time for the City of Brookhaven to get to the bottom of this issue with both Sandy Springs and St. Joseph's and get it rectified. Besides all of the inconvenience the excessive traffic causes your constituents, our tax dollars are paying to repair and maintain these roads which are residential roads and not designed for this much traffic.

Nancy - Great digging to find that old Google Maps photo. And I would add to your point about the impact of traffic the potential for tragedy if anyone in the neighborhoods along Old Johnson Ferry and West Nancy Creek were to have a medical or fire emergency in the late afternoon.

Nancy to you last photo. THe curb the shown on the right has also been lowered/removed deliberatly to enable cars to make an easy U turn. When the roundabout was first built the sidewalk was normal eight with a curb.

I see where the yellow lines used to be. I still can't figure out what Jonathan's and Janice's comments about the curb are. google maps for this spot does have the time slider that lets you look from 2008 to 2012 and the curbs on the side of the street and around the circle and its teardrop look the same. Is this something that was changed before 2008 or after 2012?

Eric, I used to walk every day to Marta from Old Johnson Ferry and recall the curb being a regular height and having a discussion when it removed with neighbors. I am not sure the exact year but would guess 2010. I am not sure how to get google maps to work but I don't think the photo above shown for 2008 is accuratly dated.

This evening when on my way to GA 400 from the east side of Ashford Dunwoody, it took three traffic lights for me to get across -- because of the stream of traffic that was clogging West Nancy Creek on the west side. When I arrived at the roundabout at Old Johnson Ferry, the relatively new sign that shows a circle with 4 egress points is part of the problem. It clearly indicates that one can go all the way around a circle. The roundabout was never designed to be a circle -- instead it was designed to flow traffic northbound from Old Johnson Ferry and to merge in traffic headed out of St. Joseph's to Johnson Ferry. It is a horseshoe, not a circle. Not only does Sandy Springs need to get on the stick to replace the No U Turn sign and restripe the pavement, but either Brookhaven or Sandy Springs needs to have the current sign replaced to show the acceptable traffic flow. I plan to attend the May 29 Brookhaven Transportation meeting and believe that this situation should be a significant discussion point. I am concerned that no one has commented on this for almost 2 weeks. We cannot give up on getting this situation resolved and the signage and pavement striping restored to the arrangement put in place as a condition of the reengineering of the Old Johnson Ferry/Johnson Ferry intersection.

There still is not a "NO U-Turn" sign at this intersection/circle at Old Johnson Ferry and the back Hospital Entrance.

I really think the neighborhood HOA's near that intersection or on that side of Ashford Dunwoody need to start pressuring St. Josephs and Sandy Springs to install one. Once that is done then lets see if enforcement is done and if it makes a difference.

If it doesn't help then other measures can be looked at.

As to the Ashford Dunwoody and West Nancy Creek Intersection. Is Brookhaven looking into the earlier suggestion of replacing that light with a light that has an arrow? That shouldn't be a big issue. Once you do that you can then set the light to provide some time for eastbound West Nancy Creek Traffic to turn left/South on to Ashford Dunwoody. It works at the Oak Forest/AD intersection and at the Savoy Chamblee Dunwoody intersection. This needs to be done now. You don't need a turn lane, just a signal with an arrow. This intersection is NOT the problem for PCID traffic, so doing a turn signal light that has a little more time will not back up the north south Ash-Dun Traffic.

Eric
This should absolutely NOT be the responsibility of any neighborhood association. We voted in the City of Brookhaven to represent us and that is who should be dealing with this. Not only should they pressure Sandy Springs, they need to ferret out the original documents St. Josephs signed at the time the roundabout was accepted. I attended the recent "interactive" meeting of the Brookhaven Transportation Steering Committee and spoke with Richard Meehan at some length. He has apparently dropped the ball on this one.

Second, NOTHING -- or even less than nothing -- should be done to facilitate eastbound traffic from West Nancy Creek. That will just encourage all of the cut through traffic and the dumping of St. Joseph's traffic onto Old Johnson Ferry and West Nancy Creek. Besides that, 95% of those people are making a right turn to head south on Ashford Dunwoody. It is the westbound neighborhood traffic that can't make a left turn to head south on Ashford Dunwoody between 5:30 and 6:15 or so on most weeknight evenings. I go through the intersection several times a week during the height of the ugliness and can tell you that adding a left turn signal for the eastbound traffic would have few users.

Again, this should not be the responsibility of citizens. If it becomes our responsibility, then why do we need/pay for government representatives?

Second

AnneH I agree Brookhaven Government should still be trying to get that U-Turn sign up. But I still think the neighborhood over there needs to start adding pressure also. Only Sandy Springs can put the sign up. There is no reason folks can't put as much pressure on them as Brookhaven officials. Pressure from neighbors and city officials can facilitate a resolution.

As to the West Nancy Creek and Ashford Dunwoody, that is my bad. I meant Westbound NOT Eastbound. Richard Meehan, I'm suggesting the arrow solution because what's happening now is Westbound traffic on East Nancy Creek trying to make that left on to Southbound Ashford Dunwoody is only getting 3 to 4 cars through because of all the eastbound traffic making a Right Hand turn to go south and thus having the right of way over the westbound cars.

The left hand turn arrow is needed, not a left hand turn lane, just a light with a left hand turn signal.

Eric, I absolutely agree that a left-turn arrow for west-bound drivers on W. Nancy Creek (headed out of the Murphey Candler area, turning left at Ashford Dunwoody toward Cambridge/Blackburn) would solve many headaches for residents of our neighborhood. My daily experience at that intersection shows that 95% of cars east-bound on W. Nancy Creek are turning right onto Ashford Dunwoody (and many of them then turn left onto Harts Mill -- cutting through to Chamblee Dunwoody?). Richard: It seems to me that this daily traffic nightmare gets totally ignored when SeeClickFix posters go silent. Could you please let us know this is not the case -- that you're still on top of the roundabout signage and/or curb issue even when we aren't posting our frustrations? JG

Consider:
St. Josephs is now part of Emory - - Emory St. Josephs. Emory may not honor any agreements with St. Josephs, depending on how they were written (does the agreement survive the acquisition?).
Emory St.Josephs and the hundreds of medical practices in that complex are a major taxpayers for Sandy Springs. This fact is likely behind the changes made to the traffic circle to allow U-turns. This fact will likely keep Sandy Springs from taking action which will hurt the hospital complex.
Therefore, I don't see that Brookhaven would have any leverage with Sandy Springs to get the necessary changes made.
I would do what I can with the light at Ashford Dunwoody and accept the delays we are now experiencing or find another way home. Possibly, some of the changes planned further north on Ashford Dunwoody at Johnson Ferry (Cambridge Square area) may encourage more drivers to come through the traffic circle to go north on Johnson Ferry.

I have followed up with Brad Edwards at Sandy Springs again today and he was not aware that the no U-turn sign had not been installed yet. He was going to follow up and see what was the delay and get the sign installation expedited,

Regarding the signal at Ashford Dunwoody/West Nancy Creek, we have had our consultant look at the option of "split" phasing the signal for West Nancy Creek which is what was suggested above. According to them, split phasing would not improve the traffic situation on W Nancy creek and could actually make it worse as will reduce the overall green time available. Right now, W Nancy is getting about 49 seconds of green time per cycle (this is an increase of what it was when we started looking at this issue). When you split phase, this green time would be split between the two approaches and will require additional yellow and all red time which will effectively reduce the overall green time.

We are continuing to look at this issue a work to develop options to help improve the traffic situation. In discussion with our Police Chief and City Manager, we are going to add "No Through Traffic" signs on Old Johnson Ferry at the City Limits. While these signs are not enforceable, they may help to let drivers know they are not supposed to cut through.

We are also in the process of making operation improvements to the intersection of Johnson Ferry and Ashford Dunwoody which will reduce the Southbound backup on both these roads. While not removing all of the cut through traffic, this should help reduce it. We expect this work, which will consist of restripping and signal improvements, is expected to start this summer and be completed in early fall.

Thanks

I would like to repeat my request to place a human at the Ashford Dunwoody / West Nancy Creek intersection. As a consultant myself I understand that a consultant is going to be convinced that his models and recommendations are accurate, and they may be, but it would be VERY interesting to have an actual human direct traffic for a while to see if his/her choices match those of the machine.

The main advantage of a person is that s/he can direct traffic through W Nancy when Ashford Dunwoody is stopped which is something a machine cannot. Furthermore, a cop could stop Ashford Dunwoody traffic at the light to allow one or two cars to turn, again, something that cannot be programmed.

A simple experiment could tell us a lot and possible remove any questions of the consultant's recommendations.

I beg your pardon, Scott. Please go back and read what you wrote -- we should "accept the delays" and/or find another way home? Neither option is acceptable if changes can be made. Let the people cutting through headed to Gwinnett County or using this route as a daily cut through to somewhere else find another way home. Together, we are trying to find a solution -- not cave in and accept this daily neighborhood traffic nightmare. JG

Richard thanks for the follow up on the U-Turn sign.

As to your explanation about Split Timing, you maybe right. But putting an arrow in would help West Bound Nancy Creek traffic because right now when it turns Green maybe 4 cars on the westbound side make it through while 30 cars from Sandy Springs (the Eastbound cars) get through.

As to the added lane at the Ashford Dunwoody and Johnson Ferry intersection, when will the designs be shown to the public? Will something be done to stop the current confusion of which lane to be in? And of much of Ashford Dunwoody is being re stripped? That suicide lane needs to go. Plus its to wide. Just put in left hand turn lanes as appropriate and narrow the center lane so that the rest of the bike lane can be striped. This will also help with pedestrian safety.

Though I don't have a lot of hope it will relieve cut through since to the extent things get better at the Ashford Dunwoody and Johnson Ferry intersection it will likely attract more cars.

To JG: Consider what I said. Consider the history of what has happened to remove the No Thru Traffic and the No U-Turn signs and to carve out the area which physically allows u-turns. Consider that nothing has happened since then for a long time. I am just being pragmatic about this. I wish you well.

The concept design for Ashford Dunwoody/JF has already been made public. We are not doing any widening, just removing the islands near the Valero and restriping both AD and JF Southbound so that there are two lanes on each entering the area between the Valero and Donaldson where there are already two lanes SB. We will also be repaving AD from just south of Harts Mill to JF which will include the restriping to reduce the width of the center turn lane, improve the lane transition southbound as you approach JF and make what accommodations for bike that we can.

The analysis of these changes by the consultant show that is could reduce the backups and delay at this intersection by 70% in the afternoon. This may attract more traffic to use JF, but many of those should be the ones that are cutting though W Nancy Creek.

Richard Induced Demand or Build it and they will come. It will attract more cars if it relieves congestion since people will use it to the point of the back up making other routes more attractive. I'm not saying I object to the project, just saying what anyone whose been here since 285 was first opened and 400 first opened already know.

As to being shown to the public are speaking of that photo shopped picture of the intersection? That's not showing it to the public and its not soliciting input. There is much that can be done with the striping and the point of a smaller city is to facilitate community input. That's not happening here.

Yes its understood the edge of pavement is not being moved just the island and the two Oak Trees in the Island are being removed and re striping in the intersection. But the impacts are larger since it will increase the amount and speed of traffic. Again I'm not saying I oppose it. Just wish there was some community involvement in the design of the project.

But back to West Nancy and Ashford Dunwoody. We need a light with an arrow even if there is no turn lane it will help immensely. Getting only a couple westbound cars through a cycle is not a good thing. You can cut the amount of time westbound traffic has green by 75%, if there is an arrow it will help immensely. As to Eastbound get the no U-turn sign installed and some enforcement of it that will help.

It's up!!

First, it has taken months and months of threatening, pleading and nagging to get that No U Turn sign reinstalled. Thank you Richard for contacting Sandy Springs and reminding them from time to time to reinstall this sign. I hope that someone will let the Sandy Springs police department know that placing an officer in the parking lot of the building shown in Nancy's picture in the late afternoons would likely produce a huge revenue stream until those drivers used to making that U Turn understand that it is really prohibited.

Richard, we'll look forward to the No Through Traffic signs -- and it would be really good if Sandy Springs would restore the striping to reinforce the No U Turn sign at the traffic teardrop. Also, the "rotary" sign on Old Johnson Ferry needs to be replaced with one that indicates one cannot go all the way around the island -- in other words, it ought to be a horseshoe rather than a circle.

With respect to Eric's most recent post, I absolutely agree that there has been no input sought about whatever the plan is for the Ashford Dunwoody/Johnson Ferry intersection. There are many aspects of this that would warrant well-publicized open meetings for discussion: for those northbound through the intersection on Ashford Dunwoody Road, for example, left turns into the Cambridge Shopping Center should be prohibited from 5 pm to 7 pm as should left turns out of the shopping center onto Ashford Dunwoody northbound. Those wishing to enter or exit the shopping center during those hours should do so via Johnson Ferry. For those of us who live in this part of Brookhaven, this intersection is probably one of THE most critical traffic issues as most of us go through the intersection more than once a day.

SeeClickFix service request audit initiated. Issue ID 714982 still in ACKNOWLEDGED status. Submitted request to City of Brookhaven Public works to provide status update.

City of Brookhaven City Manager's Office assigned this issue to Brookhaven Department of Public Works

West Nancy and Ashford Dunwoody. We need a light with an arrow even if there is no turn lane it will help immensely. Like at Oak Forest and Ashford Dunwoody, or Savoy and Chamblee Dunwoody eastbound gets its own time with a green arrow and then the east bound gets its own time with a green arrow and straight.

Right now only a couple westbound cars are able to make through the intersection each cycle, that is not a good thing. You can cut the amount of time westbound traffic has green by 75%, if there is a green arrow many more cars will get through the intersection in a fraction of the time.

Has any progress been made on getting a new traffic light for this intersection? This intersection needs to be like the one just up the Street at Ashford Dunwoody and Oak Forrest/Perimeter Summit. Oak Forrest Drive does not have a turn lane but instead has a left turn signal that goes on with the Green Light. The Green and light and left arrow then switches over to the other side of Ashford Dunwoody to Perimeter Summit to allow that traffic to move.

I understand how the Consultant came to his conclusion (relayed by Richard M on 6-10) that this "split" timing would not improve any thing because it leads to less total green light time for West Nancy Creek traffic.

However the Consultant made a mistake I assume because he is not aware of the traffic flows and the fact that traffic depending on the time of day is heavily tilted to eastbound traffic coming from Sandy Springs.

Split timing could dramatically reduce the westbound West Nancy Creek green light time dramatically and still improve the situation dramatically. As it stands now the encroaching westbound cars trying to squeeze between the non stop eastbound traffic turning right to go south or going straight creates more confusion and also leaves the intersection non functional for westbound West Nancy Creek traffic. In other words, in the afternoon westbound West Nancy Creek traffic east of Ashford Dunwoody in effect has no Green Light time.

It works at Oak Forrest which has higher traffic counts so it shouldn't be that big of a leap of faith for Brookhaven to believe it would work at this intertersection.

We need a light with an arrow and split timing!

Richard: I agree with Eric on this one. When I absolutely must go south on Ashford Dunwoody between 5:30 and 6:30 most weeknights, I come close to developing road rage at the never ending stream of eastbound traffic and the truly clueless drivers headed west on Nancy Creek who just sit there like lumps rather than moving out into the intersection. The other night, it took 3 light cycles before I could get through the intersection.

Even with the no U turn sign up at the Old Johnson Ferry traffic horseshoe, there are plenty of cars coming out of St. Joseph that just ignore it and make the U turn anyway. It would be helpful to ask that Sandy Springs occasionally put a car in the parking lot of the office building there and issue some tickets -- also, please remind them that they need to restripe that area to reinforce the No U turn message. Right now we are in what should a bit of a lull in the traffic with vacations and no school traffic. It can and will get worse.

Issue 1285741 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue.

Just wondering status of this issue. Traffic continues to back up east and west-bound on W. Nancy Creek at Ashford Dunwoody (especially morning and mid-to-late afternoons). We have asked repeatedly over the past year+ that adjustment be made to the timing of this light. Never seems to be any improvement in light timing. Headed west on W. Nancy Creek, and turning left on Ashford Dunwoody (when the light finally turns green and traffic clears enough to make a left turn there) almost ALWAYS when you then get to Marist / Harts Mill, that light is red for Ashford Dunwoody drivers. Please give West Nancy Creek drivers a longer (and more frequent green light) !

SECOND REQUEST: SeeClickFix service request audit initiated. Issue ID 714982 still in ACKNOWLEDGED status. Submitted request to Public Works to provide status update.

As I said before the best and easiest solution is to replace the traffic light with a traffic light with a left hand turn signal the one at the intersection of Oak Forest/Perimeter Summit and Ashford Dunwoody or the one at the intersection of Savoy and Chamblee Dunwoody. Then you give east bound and westbound Ashford Dunwoody their own green light cycles as is done at the above mentioned intersections. The total time could be less than the time given now but you would move more cars since you don't have the issue of cars stopping and starting because of the conflicting turn movement situation you have now.

as seen at Oak Forest you don't need a dedicated turn lane to make that work.

Think about it, if it works just up the street at Oak Forest where they have higher traffic counts why wouldn't it work just down the street at West Nancy.

I think this sounds like a great solution, Eric, and I would hope City of Brookhaven agrees and will strongly consider this option (soon). City?

This seems to be to completely different topics in this one thread. One is the missing u turn in sandy springs the other being the intersection at AD/ Nancy Creek. With another person noting the u-turn is back how do we ensure that we have issues with more clarity since this one spans to different items. Thanks .

Douglas, true, though both points are related. The issue started with the need for a timing adjustment or new traffic light with turn signal at Ashford Dunwoody and West Nancy Creek like the one at Perimeter Summit-Oak Forrest and Ashford Dunwoody.

The problem is that with the amount of traffic coming from Pill Hill its impossible to make a left hand turn from West Nancy Creek on to Ashford Dunwoody if you are coming from Murphey Candler Lake.

Many later correctly noted that the U-Turn sign was missing. This seemingly simple task to a great deal of time to resolve. And the fact that many from the St. Joseph campus were doing a U-Turn here was cited as a problem since the design of the teardrop was to discourage use of Old Johnson Ferry as a cut through by making this U-Turn illegal. The question is, has the sign stopped this practice? Is Sandy Springs enforcing it.

But I suspect even if Sandy Springs does enforce the No-U-Turn the Ashford Dunwoody and West Nancy Creek intersection will still be dysfunctional at Rush Hour.

Brookhaven earlier had responded that the PCID's consultants had set the timing of the lights to optimize traffic flow [I suspect with an eye towards giving Perimeter Center Commuters the maximum green time]. Though adjusting the light to provide some more green time for West Nancy would not hurt traffic from the PCID since this light is not where traffic is backing up.

However, even with that, the amount of traffic and the uncertainty of the situtation at rush hour with high volumes of on coming traffic I think dictate use of a signal with a turn signal so that each direction of West Nancy gets there own period of time when the signal is green. By removing the uncertainty you not only can move more cars in less time but you will also improve safety.

So we have still not gotten a traffic light with a turn signal for this intersection, like the one that appears up the Street at Ashford Dunwoody and Oak Forrest.

to make maters worse our elected officials have pulled the plug on See Click Fix, and so there is no convenient way for us to collectively communicate and weigh in.

I had no idea that See Click Fix is no longer available -- if that's the case, how did you post your comment, Eric?

SeeClickFix is still around, and i believe other cities still use it. But Brookhaven no longer uses it. So I guess this while this doesn't go away, you can't use it to report problems because Brookhaven is not using this as a way for citizens to report problems.

Well this is not good. I also just drove out via the small roundabout in front of St Joes and both cars in front made illegal u turns.

The city is no longer using this site, please visit - http://brookhavenga.gov/home/showdocument?id=2403

Is Citysourced, the new brookhaven reporting program, a smart phone only application? I can't find how to get to it on a laptop.

See link below:

http://brookhavenga.gov/city-departments/public-works/make-a-service-request

Unfortunately with City Sourced we will no longer have something like this message thread, which i feel was valuable.

I will agree with you on that, Eric -- plus the City Sourced deal has huge privacy concerns and requires a picture -- it is eliminating most of the transparency of the process and makes it that much easier for Brookhaven to ignore concerns.

I'm going to continue to check the issues here even if Brookhaven officials aren't.
Can always call them the old fashioned way at 404-637- 0576.

Somebody started a new thread on this intersection. So has anyone used the new app? Without a message board i think its not as good as this service was/is.

Still an ISSUE

Hi katyadams, the City of Brookhaven prefers the public report issues through their Brookhaven Connect system available at www.brookhavenga.gov

The City of Brookhaven does not monitor SeeClickFix.